I just got my copy. . .

[Laurna]

(also, you list Roger as born on or after 990 - I think you mean 'before')

Oops! Roger was married in 990. He was likely born between 968 and 972.
Thanks.

[Laurna]

Camber --- Alaric and Duncan  from Generation Four

~Tammaron II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell     x    ++Tiphane, Lady Ainslie
           Born: April 29, 934                              Born:in or after 930
                        /                                                        /
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                       /                             /                                           /
++Lady Swynbeth               ++ Lord Fane                           ++Lady Nerina
                                      Born December 15, 952 (twin)         Born December 15, 952(twin)
x ~Cluim Haldane          x  ~Ardana, Lady de Courcy              x~Andrew McLain                                                                         
                      /                              /                                          /
      Haldane Heirs                       /                                          /
                                                     /                                          /
                                    -----------------------------            -----------------------
                                                     /                                          /
                ++Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell                      ++ Roger Lord McLain
              x   ~Married unknown                                                  x
                                               /                                          ~Glorian Lady MacInnis
                                               /                                             later Heiress and Countess of Kierney
                                               /                                                             /
                                      ----------------                             --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      /                                                /                                             /                                              /
                 ++Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell                ++ Lord Tairchell McLain         ++ Lord Arnall McLain             ++Ayn, Lady McLain
                     Heiress of Cassan                                born December 27, 990             Born April 18,992                             x
                                /                                             (*see Lissa McLain below)                   /                                  ~Lord Loren Kincaid     
                                /                                 x                                                                   /                                    Earl of Kilarden(997-1027)
                     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                /
                        /                                                      /                                                           /                                ---------------------------
++,++Andrew McLain, Duke of Cassan   ++,++older daughter Unknown           ++,++Madonna Lucinda McLain                    /
             Born: December 1, 1034                                                                                           x                             ++Rhiryd, Earl of Kilarden
          x ~Jesma Lady McLain                                                                                ~ Kai  Anthony Morgan                        (1027-8/8/1045)
                       /                                         * ++Lissa McLain                                                 /                                                x
                       /                                       x  ~Fergus MacFaolan King of Howicce                     /                                              m1041
              -----------------                            -----------------                                        -----------------------                    Annalind Quinnell,
                      /                                                   /                                                                /                                   Princess of Meara
++,++ Jared McLain Duke of Cassan       ++Princess Aude Howicce                 ++,++  Kenneth Kia Morgan                   1/23/1008-8/8/1045
               and Earl of Keirney                                  x                                                             x                                                 /
           Born September 15, 1064                           (**)                                                                                                 ------------------
          x  ~Elaine Lady MacInnis               ++Judhael III Quinnell Kincaid                    ~ Alyce de Corwyn                 ++Judhael III Quinnell Kincaid     
               /    x  ~ Vera Howard de Corwyn            /                                                       (Twin to Vera)                                 (**)
              /            /    (twin to Alyce)                    /                                                                /
         ------        ---------------                    ----------------                                       ------------------------------
             /             /                                            /                                                    /                               /
++,++Kevin   ++,++ Duncan McLain      ++,++Caitrin Quinnell              ++,++Alaric Morgan       ++, ++Brownwyn
      McLain
       

I give here my interpretation of the Codex .       

This makes Alaric's statement from the Bishop's Heir is mostly correct.
"Neither Duncan's father or his grandfather had any brothers, but his grandfather had two sisters. The younger, my paternal grandmother, produced one son, my father. The elder sister also produced one son, however: and he married the Princess Annalind of Meara."   
I have not checked out Caitrin Quinnell's line yet.

[drakensis]

Code Select Expand


Jolyon II Quinnell = Urracca Faucon                          Tairchell McLain = ??
                   |                                                          |
              Annalind Quinnell = Rhiryd Kincaid     Fergus MacFaolan = Lissa McLain
                                |                                     |
                                Judhael III Quinnell = Aude of Howicce
                                                     |
                              Sicard McArdry = Caitrin Quinnell = Derek Delaney


So it seems Tairchell McLain did have a child, providing the link to the Quinnells. Possibly Lissa renounced her inheritance rights to Kierney to marry into the MacFaolans (Haldane children marrying outside Gwynedd are generally required to do this, so it's plausible other families may do the same), or maybe it's the usual Eleven Kingdoms aversion to succession through a female line that left Kierney being inherited by Tairchell's brother Arnall. I'd expect King Malcolm would have been quite firm that a powerful Earldom wasn't going to pass into the control of Howicce.

Interesting points:
1. Faolan MacFaolan's paternal grandmother was King Cluim Haldane's eldest daughter. Three of Cluim's children married into Howiccean families. Another was Jolyon II Quinnell's first wife.
2. This gives Caitrin's sons a claim on Kierney but not on Cassan - Tairchell's nephew Andrew was the first McLain Duke of Cassan. They can claim Cassan should have reverted to the Mearan Quinnells in the 920s when Ambert Quinnell had no male heirs, although since they've since had two occasions with no male heir themselves that's as shaky as the Festil's decrying the Haldanes for Cinhil I being absolved of priestly vows.
3. Alaric Morgan is a bit rusty on his paternal family tree.

[revanne]

"Alaric Morgan is a bit rusty on his paternal family tree."

Given how reluctant he is to engage with any sort of calculation - see DC- he would probably look at the complexity of this and think - "No I have a serious rival to my Duchy? No. Do I need to know the details of this? No!"

Maybe, too, he is more inclined towards his mother's side because he lost her so young and also because as far as he knows that's where his Deryni inheritance comes from.

I stand in awe of your powers of concentration 

[revanne]

Sorry - should read "Do I have...!

can't even type now!

[Evie]

Given that Kenneth Morgan died when Alaric was quite young (around 8-10, perhaps? I suppose we'll find out in a few weeks when the next book comes out), and Kenneth's sisters (the others most likely to know a complete or mostly complete genealogy) are older than Kenneth and have less regular contact with young Alaric, it's quite likely that all the older Morgans would have died off by the time Alaric is old enough to take a keen interest in the details of his genealogy, and so his memory of what he's been told is sketchy at best, despite Deryni normally having very keen memories. Add that to the natural tendency for most people to know very little about who their ancestors were beyond their grandparents' or great-grandparents' generation, and to be unaware of the side-branches in the family tree any further back than that, and it's hardly surprising if he is unaware he has a Camberian lineage on his paternal side or gets a few branches tangled in his mental family tree. After all, the Camberian Council seems completely unaware of his and Duncan's Camberian heritage (or maybe just thinks the Deryni bloodline has become too diluted on that side of the family to have any bearing on things), and if anyone would have had reason to keep up with such things, it would be that lot of meddling busybodies. 

[Laurna]

So it seems Tairchell McLain did have a child, providing the link to the Quinnells.

This is too much fun!

Codex page 202 "Quinnell....The Principality of Cassan split from Meara in the year 762 during the war of Succession,... a treaty signed by representatives of both branches of the House of Quinnell... which agreement also provided that, in the event of the extinction of one branch of the family, the other would have succession rights to the other territory.  The House of Quinnell of Cassan became extinct of the male line on May 21 921."
Thus  Ambert Quinnell, Princes of Cassan (909-921) passes away,  and instead of Cassan going back to Meara an agreement is made with Gwynedd for Tambert I, Ambert's grandson to become Duke of Cassan. The fight over Cassan is that old.
A hundred years later Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell has no surviving male heir, but he does have a daughter. You can imagine the fear he and the King of Gwynedd must have that Cassan will be lost to Meara when he dies. But Tambert II has a cousin by his father's twin sister, Roger McLain. Roger just happens to have two eligible sons. What does he do?

Perhaps Tairchell is not of the right temperament to run Cassan. Perhaps Tambert II did have a son who died before maturity and Tairchell being the Earl of Kierney had already married. We do not know the story, but for some reason, Roger's younger son Arnall is chosen to keep the blood line in the family and out of Meara's grasp. Adelicai and Arnall's marriage was not a love match, but a match of necessity.

Revanne and Evie,  I agree with both of you that this is quite a convoluted family tree. But I suspect nobility was often intertwined to keep the wrong members of a family from gaining family lands. Without the documentation of family trees in say the family bible, which can be lost, it would be hard to remember it all. Especially if you were a child when it was told to you. That the Camberian Council lost the info must have meant that the they had a great lose of members at once ( ie 948), and that the surviving members did not consider the diluted line of any interest. They still had the MacAthan line as pure Deryni from Camber.

Nothing like being in a leg cast to have so much time to study this.  Silly me!

[drakensis]

You're right, Tairchell does provide a successor.

Of course, to complicate all this it's almost certain that Tambert II, last FitzArthur-Quinnell Duke of Cassan and Jolyon II Quinnell died within six weeks or so of each other, neither leaving a male heir of their body. This is happening in 1025 after all and quite a lot of dynastic plans blew up in people's faces that year. (The Torenthi plan was to have the King of Torenth's next oldest brother as Prince of Meara by right of marriage to Roisian Quinnell while Annalind got consolation via marrying the next oldest brother of the Festillic Pretender (who would have been Duke of Eastmarch if the Festils had won).)

We're talking about a year in which essentially every all but four nobles holding titles of Earl or higher in Gwynedd died. (the exceptions were the Duke of Corwyn (died the next year), Duke of Rhemuth (who inherited Gwynedd), Duke of Carthmoor (who was also Earl of Culdi), Earl of Carthane). And in several cases not only the titleholder but a substantial swathe of the succession died out.


There's also a fascinating historical what-if that arose that year. King Malcolm's younger brother Jaron married Salentina, the next in line to the Festillic claim. 'Fortunately' they had only one daughter who has no known children. If they'd had a son that would have theoretically neutralised the subsequent Festillic Pretenders (who were definitely of a junior line) but have created a potentially serious rival within Gwynedd.

[Laurna]

All this info leads to the "Road of Killingford".  The new novel that KK announced she has begun writing. I am intrigued. I wonder how far back she will start? Do you start with Arnall and Adalicia's wedding in 1022 which pre - ensures that Cassan will stay in Gwynedd when Tambert II dies? Does this event send Meara into War mode to get Cassan back? Is this the catalyst that starts a war which then encourages Torenth to invade while Gwynedd is weakened. In the end almost no on survives!
I will definitely be reading that account when it is done.

[lenni]

The McLain family tree has a couple of problems with it. Rebecca Davis discussed them with Rob Reginald (of Codex Derynianus I and II fame). Here is a link to Rebecca's Web site where she discusses the problem and possible solutions (based upon comments from Rob) - http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html.

Codex II seems confused about Tairchell McLain and Arnal McClain. In some places, Tairchell inherits Kierney from Glorian MacInnis and then passes it on to Arnal McLain, his brother. In other places, Arnal McLain inherits from Glorian MacInnis.

I think that:
Tairchell should be added back in to all of the lists as Earl of Kierney and Arnall, Lissa, and Madonna should be listed as his children.
Or
Tairchell should be added back in to all of the lists as Earl of Kierney and Arnall should be listed as his brother. Andrew, Lissa, and Madonna would be Arnall's children.
I think if Ayn could hold off marrying Loren Kincaid (say 5 to 10 years) and having Rhiryd Kincaid until she was a little older, things (dates) would be OK.

Of course, there are still problems figuring out the MacFaolan's!


Based upon information from Rebecca, Rob, and Codex I and II, here is the family tree as I see it (although Ayn and the Kincaids have dates as listed in Codex II's Ordo Temporum):
Roger McLain
sp. Glorian MacInnis (Heiress of Kierney), *b. 963, *m. 11 Feb 990, *d. 11 Nov 1033
  + #@Ayn McLain, ?b. 27 Dec 990?
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, *b. 999, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
              + Judhael Quinnel-Kincaid [1], *b. 19 Jun 1042
                sp. Aude MacFaolan [2], *m. 22 May 1060
                    + Caitrin Quinnell [3], b. 28 Dec 1065
        + Danvan Kincaid, *b. 1001, *d. 18 Jun 1027
          sp. ?
              + Robert Kincaid, *b. 1025, *d. 8 Aug 1045
                sp. ?
                    + Robard Kincaid, *b. 1045
  + Tairchell McLain, *b. 27 Dec 990, *d. 14 Sep 1060
    sp. Rhetice MacEwan, *m. 17 Jun 1014
        + Arnal McLain, b. 18 Apr 1015, *d. 9 Jan 1076
          sp. Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell (Heiress of Cassan), m. 20 Feb 1034
              + Andrew McLain (Duke of Cassan), *b. 1 Dec 1034
                sp. Jesma McLain, *m. 18 Jul 1059
                    + Jared McClain (Duke of Cassan), b. *15 Sep 1064
                      sp. Vera (de Corwyn) Howard
                          + Duncain McLain
        + %Lissa McLain (!2nd wife)
          sp. %Fergus MacFaolan
              + Aude MacFaolan [2], *%m. 22 May 1060
                sp. Judhael Quinnel-Kincaid [1], *b. 19 Jun 1042
                    + Catrin Quinnell [3], *b. 28 Dec 1065
        + Madonna McLain,
          sp. Kai Morgan
              + Kenneth Kai Morgan, *b. 7 Oct 1046
                sp. Alyce de Corwyn (Heiress of Corwyn)
                    + Alaric Morgan

The dates following an asterix (*) are from Codex II's Ordo Temporum section. It really is quite handy and sometimes has things that are not found in the main section!
The dates/relationships following a pound sign/hash (#) are from Rob Reginald.
The dates/relationships following an at sign (@) are from Rebecca Davis.
The dates following a percent sign (%) are from the Codex 2 entry of Judhael (III) Quinnell-Kincaid, Caitrin's father.
The comments following a bang/exclamation point (!) are from comments by Rob Reginald.

######################################
# Comments from Rob Reginald
Rebecca Davis (according to emails from Rob Reginald):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/usenet.html
Well, Rob further explained in the same article:

"Duke Alaric did make one misstatement, confusing one of the triple descendants (sic) of Ithel from the House of McLain, which is understandable. Loren Kincaid's wife was Ayn Lady McLain, eldest child of Sir Roger McLain." (alt.books.deryni, February 7, 1999)
######################################
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Rebecca Davis makes the following comments about Ayn McLain (Loren Kincaid's wife and Caitrin Quinnell's ancestor):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
Unfortunately, the dates still don't work for Ayn McLain; she can not be Roger McLain's eldest child:
1)      Roger McLain and Glorian MacInnis were married on February 11, 990. Their eldest child, Tairchell, was born December 27, 990.
2)      Even if she were Tairchell's twin, Ayn would be, at most, barely 9 years old, when Rhiryd Kincaid was born in 999.
3)      Ayn can't be the daughter of Roger by a previous marriage; the claim for the Earldom of Kierney is through Glorian MacInnis, not Roger McLain.

I think that this would work out if:
1. Ayn were Tairchell's older twin.
2. Ayn held off marrying Loren Kincaid until she was a little older (say 1004 at the earliest)
3. Rhiryd Kincaid birth were held off a little, say 1005 at the earliest.
So, this:
  + #@Ayn McLain, ?b. 27 Dec 990?
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, *b. 999, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
Could be this:
  + #@Ayn McLain, b. 27 Dec 990
    sp. Loren Kincaid, *b. 977, @m. 1004, *d. 18 Jun 1027
        + Rhiryd Kincaid, @b. 1005, *d. 8 Aug 1045
          sp. Annalind Quinnell, *b. 23 Jan 1008, *m. 15 Sep 1041, *d. 8 Aug 1045
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Codex 2:
Judhael (III) Amyas Jolyon Quinnell-Kincaid, Prince and Pretender of Meara, Earl of Kilarden.
"... He intermarried with the Princess Aude daughter of Fergus King of Howicce and Lissa Lady McLain, elder daughter of Tairchell Earl of Kierney, on the XXIInd day of May in the year 1060 at Sirhowy, and by her he had children: ..."
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! Comments from Rob Reginald
Rebecca Davis (according to emails from Rob Reginald):
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/mclains.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/usenet.html

In said article, Rob confirmed Madonna's attribution, backing up everything one generation. However, he added that Tairchell McLain's elder daughter was not the wife of Loren Kincaid, but the second wife of Fergus, King of Howicce.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lenni]

All this info leads to the "Road of Killingford".  The new novel that KK announced she has begun writing. I am intrigued. I wonder how far back she will start? Do you start with Arnall and Adalicia's wedding in 1022 which pre - ensures that Cassan will stay in Gwynedd when Tambert II dies? Does this event send Meara into War mode to get Cassan back? Is this the catalyst that starts a war which then encourages Torenth to invade while Gwynedd is weakened. In the end almost no on survives!
I will definitely be reading that account when it is done.

Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)

[Laurna]

Codex II seems confused about Tairchell McLain and Arnall McClain. In some places, Tairchell inherits Kierney from Glorian MacInnis and then passes it on to Arnall McLain, his brother. In other places, Arnall McLain inherits from Glorian MacInnis

I agree that there appears to be an error in the Kierney list of Earls. Tairchell needs to be added as Earl from 1033-1060. Actually sense he is human, Tairchell should have the title of Earl from birth. So the listing should read 990-1060 With Glorian as regent until he comes of age.  And then Arnall becomes Earl in his later years from 1060-1076. When Arnall dies, his son Andrew II Duke of Cassan should gain the title, but he gives the title of Earl of Kierney directly to his son Jared in 1076. In two places Tairchell and Arnall are named as brothers, their father being Roger McLain. (Codex page 175 House McLain) and in the time line (Codex page 306).  And Codex page 140 states Lissa Lady McLain is the elder daughter of Tairchell Earl of Kierney and is married to Fergus King of Howicce. Lissa and Fergus's daughter is Princess Aude.  On Codex page 146 Madonna Lady McLain is stated to be the second daughter of Arnall. Therefore Lissa and Madonna are cousins and not two sisters as Alaric mentions.

I have found no reference in this edition that Tairchell and Arnall were father and son. Unless the first Codex stated it differently  than the second Codex.  You should know that I have used the Deryni genealogy charts on Mindspring.com for years. And this possible error might be the reason I had so much trouble connecting Alaric to Camber. I did not do my own research as I am doing now.

I can find no information on Ayn Mclain. If anyone has seen her name in print within the Codex, I would love the page number and heading. I have missed it so far.

The trouble with the Codex is that so many people that you want to look up, do not have a listing of their own. Information about people are in obscure areas, often under parents, grandparents, or names of places. You have to read everyone and everything related to the person of interest to get the facts you need. And occasionally there are typos or errors that don't correlate making it harder to decipher. Putting together an atlas of this magnitude must have been daunting. I really do hope a new edition will come out with all the new info, but I can see where that will be a lot of work.

[drakensis]

In said article, Rob confirmed Madonna's attribution, backing up everything one generation. However, he added that Tairchell McLain's elder daughter was not the wife of Loren Kincaid, but the second wife of Fergus, King of Howicce.

That fits with CodexII.

Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)

I think you mean 948 there.

And that would probably require a new trilogy - one book for each of the three major invasions. Not that I'd complain if they all got books, but that seems unlikely.

I agree that there appears to be an error in the Kierney list of Earls. Tairchell needs to be added as Earl from 1033-1060. Actually sense he is human, Tairchell should have the title of Earl from birth. So the listing should read 990-1060 With Glorian as regent until he comes of age.  And then Arnall becomes Earl in his later years from 1060-1076. When Arnall dies, his son Andrew II Duke of Cassan should gain the title, but he gives the title of Earl of Kierney directly to his son Jared in 1076.

Adding Tairchell from 1033-1060 would be correct. He wouldn't be Earl from birth since his maternal grandfather Richard MacInnis didn't die until 1025 (having been Earl since 948 - almost 80 years!). It's possible he could be Earl from then or his mother might be Countess in her own right, depending on how the title's entailed. The 'celtic fringe' of the Eleven Kingdoms seems more permissive of female succession than the Byzantahn-influenced central regions and Kierney is pretty clearly part of the former not the latter, so I'd lean towards Glorian being Countess from 1025-1033.

Andrew passing the title down to Jared follows the example of Claibourne in creating an Earldom for the ducal heir. Alaric did the same, declaring Kelric Earl of Lendour from birth.


I may as well admit at this point that the fanfic I'm working on is covering 1025 - starting from Marek II Festil being girded as King of Gwynedd and hopefully running up to Malcolm Haldane's marriage to Roisian Quinnell. It probably won't be as good as Road to Killingford but it should be ready to be posted sometime around the end of the month.

[lenni]

Ooooh! Goody, goody! I hadn't heard about this. I hope that she starts "Road of Killingford" right around 927 or so (just before Joram, et al. die). ;-)

I think you mean 948 there.

Sigh! Yes and no. I really meant 947. I'd like to see a little peace (!?) and learn about families before we get into the whole 948 thing. :-(

And that would probably require a new trilogy - one book for each of the three major invasions. Not that I'd complain if they all got books, but that seems unlikely.

A new trilogy?! YAY! I can always dream.

[Laurna]

Adding Tairchell from 1033-1060 would be correct. He wouldn't be Earl from birth since his maternal grandfather Richard MacInnis didn't die until 1025

Yes thankyou. that part had sliped my mind. Do to the treaty with Meara Cassan was not supposed to pass the title down through a woman. Although the did find a way around that issue twice.   Kierney would not have had that restriction and I can see where Glorian might have held the earldom in her own right. However by 1025 Tairchaill would have been 35 years old. I doubt if Glorian would keep the title of Earl away from her son of that age.

at this point that the fanfic I'm working on is covering 1025

I am intrigued. It will be interesting to follow that time period, but exceedingly sad at the end.
The same with 948. Both time periods will be hard to read without a box of tissues.

If Codex 3 ever goes to digital format, imagine how much easier this will be. Just search for a name and find every reference to that name in the book.  I would love that. I would only have to keep separated the generations that have a tendency to repeat family names.