Why was Sief MacAthan the last MacRorie family member in the CC?

[Lochiel]

This question has long bothered me. The CC was a MacRorie creation. Surprising to me that Sief was the only member at that time and from what I can see the last.....................................

[Laurna]

From what we know, there just are no Male MacAthan's left after Sief.

So the ancestry as I can find it is here:  https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,1439.0.html
1.Camber Kyriell MacRorie August 3, 846-January 6, 918 6 children but only one male son married to carry the name forward.

2.Cathan Adrian MacRorie  August 30, 873 -December 1,903 2 sons

3a. Davin Elathan MacRorie April 13, 898-September 28, 917 never married
3b. Ansel Irial MacRorie,  March 23, 900 - 948 3 children: two daughters+one son
name change to MacAthan

4.Stuart Cathan MacRorie born in or after 932 Number of childern unknown: one son +(in Drakensis fanfiction there are also two younger sons)

5. Son of Stuart MacAthan (Krispin MacAthan)
    We know for a fact that there is a Krispin MacAthan named as one of Sief's lineage.
   I will say that this generation is Krispin MacAthan born some time around 963.
   We also know that this Son of Stuart (or Krispin) had to have two sons- because Sief has a distant cousin named Lady Sylphe MacAthan.

6a. Son of Krispin MacAthan (grandson of Cathan) Born around 980- has at least one son

6b. second son of Krispin MacAthan has at least one son

What differs between my point of view and that seen on the Deryni genealogy website is whether there is one generation between Krispin and Seif or two generations. I say there must be at least two generations because Seif said he named his son after an ancestor named Krispin. He did not say that he named his son after his grandfather.  So therefore i named two generations here.

7a.Son of eldest son of Krispin MacAthan born around 1000 has one surviving son(Sief)

7b. Son of the second son of Krispin MacAthan born around 1000.  We believe he has a daughter named Lady Sylphe MacAthan. No surviving sons.

8a. Sief MacAthan born around 1023 died 1082 age 59. Children: four daughters and one son(Krispin- who died as a child((and was really king Donal's son)))

8b. Lady Sylphe MacAthan married Michon Etienne Estephe de Courcy, Baron de Courcy and Stanza on May 1, 1055. She was Sief's cousin or second Cousin.


That was the end of the MacAthan line. It is possible that there are some hidden MacAthan's out there from a branch of the family tree. but if so, KK has not told us.

[DesertRose]

It is also quite possible that Sief MacAthan was the last MacRorie relative who knew himself to be a descendant of Camber to be on the Council.

After all, by In The King's Service, Camber had been out of the mortal plane for well over a hundred years, in which time people can have a lot of children, and during which period of Gwyneddan history Deryni in general and those with blood ties to Camber had a lot of good reason to play that heritage close to their chests.

Also, of Camber's children, only two had children of their own (Cathan and Evaine), and of course Evaine's children bore the Thuryn surname and of her three who survived to adulthood, two were daughters who took their husband's surnames when they married.

So who knows?  Some of these other Councillors over the years may have been MacRorie descendants all unknowing.   

[Laurna]

Also, of Camber's children, only two had children of their own (Cathan and Evaine), and of course Evaine's children bore the Thuryn surname and of her three who survived to adulthood, two were daughters who took their husband's surnames when they married.

Exactly, the oldest of Evaine's two daughters were Rhysel who Married Robert Ainslie, who was human, and their children where half Deryni. and the second daughter is Jerusha who Marries Cathan Drummond (the young man from The Bastard Prince). Jerusha and Cathan's oldest daughter, given the name Kyriella, marries Stuart MacAthan.

Any other children and grand children of Stuart and Kyriella MacAthan, besides the eldest son Krispin, might not have found Deryni spouses. The families known to be Deryni would have been very few. So any children might have married either outside of Rhymuth or married humans. Remember the CC considered only pure Deryni for their membership. So anyone marrying a human blood line would have been excluded from the CC and might have likely been excluded from serious training.

[drakensis]

While Camber created the Council and it's likely there was a preference to keep his family among the members, that does depend on known branches. And there do seem to be concerns within the Council about the loyalties of prospective members.

There's also a rift in thinking between the improvisational and the formulaic - Rhysel mentions this contrasting her parents - schools of thought. And the prejudice against mixed blood which Laurna mentioned.

So it seems likely that Rhysel's daughter Tiphane wasn't really considered as a candidate, much less her son Fane (who was Duke of Cassan), or daughters Nerina and Swynbeth, who also had married noblemen who could not afford the political cost of a Deryni bride (even if Tiphane's children were quarter-Deryni) given the mood at the time. In fact, some records may have been deliberately lost to obscure identities against purges - Rhysel was certainly not admitting to being Deryni and it's possible that the facts weren't passed on so it's possible that by Sief's time that he didn't know what happened to those lineages.

I'm not sure what happened to the Drummond line of descent, but Rhysel's children all have documented descent among both noble and royal houses. For example, it's very likely Colman II of Howicce, the king who breaks his engagement to Janniver, is a Camber descendant twice over - his great-grandfather Fergus married a daughter of Earl Tairchell of Kierney who was himself Rhysel's great-great-grandson, so unless Fergus son Colman I was from another marriage, that's one line. And Fergus' paternal grandmother was a Haldane princess, daughter of Rhysel's grand-daughter Swynbeth.

And that's setting aside the McLains, Morgans, Quinnells, Haldanes... Most of whom would have had good reason to hide the descent for two centuries.

And then there may have been false claimants seeking membership of the Council and the presumed access to lore and authority, based off fictional claims to be a 'lost' descendant seeking their 'rightful place'.

[Lochiel]

Thank you all for your input especially Laurna's Genealogical knowledge, which never ceases to amaze me. I'll have to chase down my Codex and follow along the branches.

[Laurna]

Thank you Lochiel. I had gotten away from finishing off my genealogy lists from the last parts of the codex (I was at the Q's). I should finish those up.
Has anyone noticed that the Deryni Geneology  website at http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/home.html has disappeared? It is a shame, I really liked those pages and all that detail. Does anyone know Rebecca who ran that website?  Can we get it back some how?

[glennd]

I can't get to the site either, but it's in the wayback machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20170315204849/http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/home.html