Haldane Generations 1-16 Halbert The Dane

[Laurna]

In the Codex Derynianus the Haldane Family begins with Halbert The Dane, the founding father of the County of Haldane in the year 411.  The family of Haldane expanded their borders "at the expense of their neighbors" (per the Codex page 110)  until the year 645 when Augarian II conquered the counties of both Carthane and Lendour. Then he proclaimed himself the First King of Gwynedd.

I offer you color charts for the Haldane family tree Generations 1-11 starting from Halbert the Dane and covering the Counts of Haldane. Followed by a second chart Haldane generations 9-16 Covering the Kings of Gwynedd from Augarian II until the ghastly slaughter of the Haldane family in 822. As you look at the charts you will notice that the Haldanes are entwined with the Furstans of Torenth and also with the Family of MacTyre who were the Deryni of Kheldour.

Click on the links below to download the PDF files.
The color charts are for poster size paper, therefore I do not recommend printing them.
The outline charts are on normal paper and can be printed.
Errors most likely exist, let me know if you see any.
Thank you  ENJOY

Color chart  Haldanes Generations 1-11  Halbert the Dane
You cannot view this attachment.

Color chart Haldanes Generations 9-16  Augarian II First King of Gwynedd
You cannot view this attachment.

Outline Haldanes Generations 1-16
You cannot view this attachment.

[Evie]

LOL, I don't think I even realized the founder of the House of Haldane was named Halbert when I chose that name for a distant descendant of his, whose treacherous son would eventually be exiled to Cambria and end up founding the Atherton-Haldane dynasty. I thought I had just made the name up, but maybe I had seen the entry about Halbert the Dane earlier and it was stored away in my subconscious. It certainly wasn't something that I planned! 😂

[Laurna]

Evie, I love that Halbert was the start of your Haldane family that went to Cambria. Seems quite fitting.  From what I gather , the first Haldanes were fairly power hungrey and kept taking their neighbors lands.  Glad Kelson didn't get that family trait.

Halbert II was a son of Augarian II first King of Gwynedd. He was the Count of Haldane while his older brother was King LLarik the Cruel. It appears LLarik was ruthless and executed a lot of family members. Sounds like he got that BAD Haldane Trait. His grandmother was a princess of Mooryn and his Great Great Grandmother was a Princess of Torenth. 

I think Halbert the Dane could have been Deryni. It says that Halbert the Dane fled from old Kheldour after his brother unjustly accused him of making advances to his wife. It says Halbert's brother was a prince of Kheldour. Before the year 411 Kheldour was run by the mysterious Sea People, the Heldurnii. They were tribes of people who succeeded in keeping Byzantyun armies out of the north.  And this is before the known Deryni MacTyre family concurred the tribes of Kheldour in 555.  So the Haldanes are not MacTyre.  but they could be the original Deryni from before the Deryni island  of Caeriesse sank or they could be some other type of magic using Tribal peoples like the original druids of the King Arthur legends. There is something different about the Haldanes than other Deryni families. and it could stem from this original Tribal Sea People.  What do you think?

[tenworld]

is the implication here that the Deryni were aliens who came to earth on Carisse and interbred or a mutation that occurred on Carisse and spread as they came to the mainland in different waves?

I'm not pushing the alien explanation in fact I would prefer it's not the source.

[Laurna]

I can not honestly say! I am not sure that KK has ever answered this question. But I will say that Islands are the most common locations for Isolation in gene pools. If a mutation occurs on an Island it is more likely to be passed onto the next generation and then a few generations down it becomes prominent when cousins have children with cousins. If the mutation is beneficial, it may actually become sought after, until nearly every member of that race on the Island shares the same mutation. Therefore, I would lien toward Derynianus mostly coming from members of that Island. and Not an cosmic Alien landing on the island from outer space.

We have been having a discussion similar to this on Discord. And one of our member's, Fruit, has determined that the Autokrators of Byzuntyun may have been Deryni as early as 42AD.  So that begs the question how did they become Deryni so early? 

And there is also the question of the Sea People and Northern tribes in Ancient Kheldour being Deryni before the island of Caerisse sank. Were these early Deryni all people who voyage from the Island? Or does the mutation for Derynianus spring up in other locations other than just the one time on the island. I still believe that the Haldanes are a slightly different version of Derynianus than those who invaded the main land after the Island sank.

I love plotting Theories. Tell me what everyone thinks

[Laurna]

Theory 3 - ... I can't write this here.  I promised Laurna I'd go over it with her after she finishes her fanfic, but as soon as she does...you should go read her story - she's going to break a trebuchet! 

I guess I better get my fingers in gear and type out Breaking up that Trebuchet. Because I am curious about Theory 3.

Your Theory 4 is very interesting. Alot of  people in Gwynedd seem to have silver auras. And I always kind of wondered if silver just meant 'bright light' as apposed to tinted light. But I would actually think Golden light would be more common because sunlight and candle light are golden and that should be the most common light to copy. Yet silver seems more common. I will be curious to find out more about this too.

[Evie]

Theory 4 -  related to Theory-2+Theory-3 - the shield/handfire color is indicative of the deryni-heritage (for lack of a better word) that a person comes from; it's not a question of if someone's deryni, it's a question of what type of deryni they are - that heritage is passed along from parent to child, and is indicated by the natural color of their shield/handfire.  That's why all the Torenthis seem to have blue/violet auras; if true, then one could say that blue/purple auras were common on the mainland, and the red aura was only common on Caeriesse.

Interesting theory, and one that raises more questions since if we end up assuming this, then that would mean the Arilans are somehow of Torenthi descent, at least somewhere back in their early history. But their family is (at least by Donal's time) from an area slightly west of Rhemuth. It's not impossible that somehow a distant ancestor from Torenth ended up in that part of Gwynedd, but it does make for a bit of a mystery as to how and why they ended up there, and why they are so utterly devoted to the Haldane dynasty.

Green for the Norseland (see a separate thread that posited that Healers had red hair and had ancestry from the Norselands), etc.

Alaric and Rhys both had green handfire, and since Alaric is distantly descended from Rhys and likely inherited his Healing gift from him too, I can see that connection between green handfire/distant Norseland heritage/Healing ability applying there. But Duncan and Dhugal are also Healers, again most likely due to distant descent from Rhys Thuryn, but IIRC their handfire is silver rather than green. (Or maybe Dhugal's was gold but Duncan's was silver? I can't recall for sure, but I know for certain neither of them have green handfire.) So again, that would be another puzzle that needs solving if this theory is correct.

[Evie]

Hi!
I had created a thread on these forums on shield/handfire color - https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,2961.0.html - I've been updating it as I go through rereading the books.
First      Last          Shield          Handfire
Denis    Arilan        Silver          Silver
Jamyl    Arilan        Unknown      Silver
Dhugal  MacArdry    Gold            Silver
Alaric    Morgan      Unknown    Green
Alyce      de Corwyn  Unknown    Green
Vera      Howard      Unknown    Green
Duncan  McLain        Silver          Silver

 Why do you think it means the Arilans are Torenthi?  The entry for Jamyl in the Codex says he has blue-violet eyes - could that be what you're thinking of?

As far as I recall, all the Arilans depicted in the books thus far do have blue-violet eyes, but I could have sworn I also recall seeing at least one mention of Denis' handfire being blue-violet, which is why I'm pretty sure I incorporated that into my fanfic as well.  But maybe I'm misremembering, or perhaps it was a one-off error in one scene that didn't get caught during the editing process and that happened to be the one mention my brain latched on to. Now I want to go back through all of Denis's scenes myself to try to figure out what gave me that idea, but I don't have time....  

I do find it interesting that Vera Howard's handfire was green but that her son's and grandson's handfire are both silver, and her grandson's shields are gold. Given your theory, would that mean that they've inherited handfire/shield colors from some other branch of the family?

[Laurna]

Not sure if this helps or counters your research: Codex page 147 under Kheldour -"The Autokrator Basileios sent an army against them (Heldurnii) in the year 253, seeking to extend his Empire beyond the River Erinys, But six weeks later only 4soldiers out of Five thousand who had left Rhombuticum returned home, sick and exhausted and trembling with fear. They Spoke of being attacked by devils from Hell with GREEN FIRE. THe Great King did not move North again."
The Green fire may not have anything to do with Auras but then again it might. The families of MacTyre and Haldane originally started as the Heldurnii.The MacTyre may be Green but the Haldane were Red.

[Evie]

The colors purple and green are widely associated with magical tradition, at least in the Western world, not just in Disney films. And green in particular is often (though not always or exclusively) associated with evil magic, though since green can also be symbolic of healing/life, I think KK has chosen that particular color association for the color green rather than green = evil. (And even then, as you point out, it's not a 1:1 correspondence, since there are Healers whose handfire/shields aren't green.)

I'm very surprised to see Cauley and Jared in your list of people with shields, much less shields with a known color, since neither man was known to be Deryni. Certainly the CC was unaware of Jared having a Deryni heritage, since they thought Duncan was a "half breed," and were even more baffled by Dhugal's powers at first before they learned he was Duncan's son. Jared having rudimentary shields could be explained by his close association with a Deryni wife, but where would Cauley's come from? Both men might have Deryni ancestors, but if so, they'd have been far enough back (or keeping the secret so close to their chest) that the CC had reason to believe they were full human, and even Jared's Deryni wife had no idea he was anything but human despite their long years of marriage. It seems unlikely that even Vera wouldn't know.