Pawns and Queens--a 15th Century Gwynedd Story--Chapter Thirty-Six

[JudithR]

Seem to be caught in "another post" relationship.  I was assuming a live birth and the child surviving.  I suspect that Alekandr's position in not that safe (how old is he - I think it waas mentioned early on).  I suspect that as soon as the news of Torval's death is received, plotters will be a plotting.

The Kheldourians may have view on Ingrid - Queen by right of conquest, but could she hold onto the throne?  A rhetorical question.

[Evie]

Seem to be caught in "another post" relationship.  I was assuming a live birth and the child surviving.  I suspect that Alekandr's position in not that safe (how old is he - I think it waas mentioned early on).  I suspect that as soon as the news of Torval's death is received, plotters will be a plotting.

The Kheldourians may have view on Ingrid - Queen by right of conquest, but could she hold onto the throne?  A rhetorical question.

Aleksandr is thirteen, which in Kelson's day would put him just a little under the legal majority, though by 1465 I am thinking he would still be at least partly under the control of a regent or regency council until he's at least sixteen and considered better able to govern on his own. (When my own son was fourteen, I was telling him the basic premise of "Deryni Rising," and he joked "They've got a fourteen year old King on the throne? What could possibly go wrong?!" What, indeed!    Fortunately Kelson was a bit better equipped for the position than your average 21st Century teen boy, but still!)

[DerynifanK]

I am wondering, did Torval pull his troops back from Haakon's flank to make it more likely that he would be killed in the battle? Was his purpose in letting Haakon lead the center also to have him die? This whole sequence seems to be a plan to kill Haakon by battle.

[Evie]

I am wondering, did Torval pull his troops back from Haakon's flank to make it more likely that he would be killed in the battle? Was his purpose in letting Haakon lead the center also to have him die? This whole sequence seems to be a plan to kill Haakon by battle.

That's exactly right. He saw an opportunity to separate Haakon from Ingrid and Björn long enough to put him in a vulnerable position where he was most likely to end up dead, especially given his youthful inexperience and his brash overconfidence. He's been planning Haakon's death from the very beginning, even before Haakon tried to kill Cécile, but before now he still needed Haakon and Rémy and their forces to deal with the western parts of Gwynedd while he dealt with the more eastern areas. Now that they have all converged on Rhemuth, Haakon has served his purpose and is now expendable. Of course, Torval had counted on Ingrid assuming that Haakon simply died in battle and not finding out immediately that he died in part because he was betrayed by Torval. He would have hoped to keep his part in Haakon's death secret (or at least unprovable) until he was ready to be rid of her also, probably shortly after their son's birth. Unfortunately for him, by scrying for her son, Ingrid was able to see Torval's betrayal for herself, which is why she turned on him.

[revanne]

So useful for Gwynedd that their enemies kill each other, though given the fact that they were all using each other, and each ruler seems to have an exit strategy which includes the demise of their supposed ally, that's hardly surprising.

Petsonally I wouldn't have trusted any of them with a fiver  (£5) to go to the corner shop for me.

However it is hard to see how Haldane rule in Gwynedd would have survived a consistent and concerted attack so "thank the Lord for his mercies" however mysteriously they are delivered.

[Evie]

So useful for Gwynedd that their enemies kill each other, though given the fact that they were all using each other, and each ruler seems to have an exit strategy which includes the demise of their supposed ally, that's hardly surprising.

Petsonally I wouldn't have trusted any of them with a fiver  (£5) to go to the corner shop for me.

However it is hard to see how Haldane rule in Gwynedd would have survived a consistent and concerted attack so "thank the Lord for his mercies" however mysteriously they are delivered.

Well,to be fair, Torval was the only one actively planning to do away with any of the others the entire time. Haakon had no such wish; he only tried to kill Cécile because he discovered she had cheated on him with Torval. By his culture's standards, it is entirely acceptable to do away with an adulterous bride, especially since he is the King (at least nominally), so that's high treason. But he had no plans to kill Torval anytime in the near future (once he became a full adult, it would have been more likely, as Torval would have been a serious rival and also the man his first bride cheated on him with), and he certainly wouldn't have wanted to kill his mom or his bestie Rémy. Haakon didn't turn on Rémy until Rémy betrayed them all at the Duel Arcane.

Rémy, before the Duel Arcane, had no plans to betray the others either. Joux is the weakest of the three allied kingdoms and needed the support of the others to achieve their own goals in the Forcinn. He only turned on them because he suddenly and unexpectedly thought he had a golden opportunity to win all of Gwynedd for himself, so he was going to jump at that even if it meant leaving his allies in the dust in the process. He probably figured that if he won the duel, he could figure out some way to buy his way back into their good graces, but even if not, he'd be both King of Gwynedd and Heir to Joux, and maybe that would make it a more even fight if he ended up needing to fight them. (A bit daft of him to assume that a populace he has been actively ravaging would suddenly back him if he won the duel, but Rémy wasn't the brightest crayon in the box.)

Then there is Ingrid. Ingrid is totally devoted to her son, and she has entered this whole enterprise due to her love for him and to avenge her beloved late husband's death at the hands of the people of Kheldour. She would obviously have never once thought of betraying Haakon. She also entered her marriage with Torval in good faith, wanting a husband who would give her strong sons and the means of taking Kheldour for herself. She mainly agreed with trying to take the rest of Gwynedd so that Haakon could expand his kingdom to include more fertile and prosperous lands than they rule already. Torval taking too much interest in Cécile might have taken the bloom off the rose a bit, but not because she expects Torval to be faithful (remember, she's the one who nudged him into starting the affair as a means of keeping Cécile happy and winning her trust until it was time for her to serve her purpose). Ingrid's irritation over Torval's obsession with Cécile is because she never meant for him to actually fall for the expendable little chit! Who would have guessed he would go all mushy over some naive bit of skirt who is only three years older than his own heir? But even despite her annoyance over that situation, she would have been well prepared to step down from being Regent of Eistenmarcke in due time and become a more full time Queen of Nördmarcke (while also being sovereign of Kheldour with the intention of passing that kingdom down to their son someday), except over time she began to recognize Torval's veiled contempt for Haakon. It was Torval's betrayal of her beloved son that finally made her turn on him.

Rémy is the only ally who Ingrid had any intentions of betraying, or at least somehow shaking off, and that was mainly because she hated the bad influence he was having on Haakon, and particularly on Haakon's attitudes towards women. She saw him as a necessary evil, but as soon as his help was no longer needed, she would have been looking for ways to create more distance between him and Haakon, perhaps by sending him back to conquer the Forcinn with the help of some Eistenmarckers and Nördmarckers, while convincing Haakon to remain in his new kingdom to secure his hold over the newly conquered Vestermarcke. There was no need for her to plot to kill Rémy unless that became the only way to remove his influence on Haakon in future.

So while Torval had his redeeming qualities, he really was the only one going into this war with the intent of killing one of his allies before it was over, and that ally was Haakon. If Haakon had been allowed to grow to full manhood, he would have been a serious rival to Torval's ambitions. Ingrid, on the other hand, was a very useful tool, and even Rémy, annoying idiot though he was, had his uses. Had they all survived to conquer Gwynedd, Torval would have honored their original agreement and sent Rémy back to Joux in glory with a bunch of extra allies to help him take the Forcinn, especially if he could get Rémy to agree to giving him custody of Cécile. Granted, because the other three allies were complicit at least to some extent in Cécile's attempted murder (Torval himself thought it was just going to be some sort of magical ritual consummation that, while he knew would likely be unpleasant for the poor girl, he did not expect to result in her near death), they became more expendable in his mind from that day forward, but that doesn't mean he was planning to betray them all the entire time when he first invited them to be allies.

[DerynifanK]

These alliances had more twists and turns than a pretzel. No one entered the agreement with the intention of being completely faithful. The lust for power becomes all consuming.
@Evie did you study medieval history in college or have you become so knowledgeable through studying on your own. You have an impressive knowledge of all aspects of medieval times.

[Evie]

These alliances had more twists and turns than a pretzel. No one entered the agreement with the intention of being completely faithful. The lust for power becomes all consuming.
@Evie did you study medieval history in college or have you become so knowledgeable through studying on your own. You have an impressive knowledge of all aspects of medieval times.

I majored in English with a focus on British Literature. But there is some crossover between studying earlier periods of literature and studying history, at least if you want to have any hope of understanding the literature in context, and especially if you are particularly interested in earlier periods of literature. You can't really read Beowulf or other Old English literature without having to learn about Anglo-Saxon history and culture for it to make sense. To read The Canterbury Tales with any understanding, even in translation, you need some knowledge of the high Middle Ages. To read and understand Shakespeare, even though that is Early Modern English, a lot of cultural context is lost if you know nothing about Renaissance England. Even for something like a Dickens or a Jane Austen novel to make sense, it helps to know a little something about the Victorians or the Regency period. So a love for literature almost inevitably led to a love of history as well, though I never majored in it. I have done a metric crap-ton of reading about historical topics over the years, though, especially when it comes to the Anglo-Saxon to Elizabethan periods in England, because that span of time captures my interest the most. I'm more interested in daily life stuff than which King did what in which year, though. I'll read a royal biography with mild interest, but give me a living history documentary like "Tudor Monastery Farm" and I'll be enthralled for hours. But no, I'm really not that knowledgeable about all aspects of medieval life, especially outside of English history. Even professional medieval historians have some specific area of focus. The period is simply too extensive both in terms of the number of centuries covered and the number of countries and cultures involved, and how they all changed over time, for any one person to acquire a thorough knowledge of it. The more I learn, the less I realize I actually know.


But re: our allies, as I just explained in great detail, all except for Torval entered the alliance with the intention of honoring it, and even Torval had intended to honor most of it with the exception of knowing he would have to kill Haakon eventually. Going into an alliance knowingly using people for one's own ends is not the same as going into it planning to betray them. However, everything started to break down after the ritual involving Cécile. The ritual consummation was meant to strengthen the bond between allies; instead, since Haakon decided to get innovative with it and also use it as an opportunity to rid himself of an adulterous bride, Cécile instead turned into the catalyst giving impetus to the alliance's eventual downfall.

[JudithR]

You might enjoy "Old Parish Life" - principally churchwardens' accounts pre -reformation.

Gems like "purchase of young tree to prop up gutter".  Do you know offhand when "Mistress" changed to "Goodwife"?  It seems to have been mid- to late sixteenth century. 

[Evie]

You might enjoy "Old Parish Life" - principally churchwardens' accounts pre -reformation.

Gems like "purchase of young tree to prop up gutter".  Do you know offhand when "Mistress" changed to "Goodwife"?  It seems to have been mid- to late sixteenth century. 

I really don't know, but I imagine the online Oxford English Dictionary would give some clues.

[revanne]

Seeing as my gutter is currently collapsing with the weight of storm water maybe I should look to purchase a young tree. 

[Demercia]

There is also "Voices of Morebath" by Eamon Duffy, brining to life 16th century church wardens accounts.  I particularly liked "we have the money to repair the church roof..... when we can find a man to do it"

[JudithR]

There is also "Voices of Morebath" by Eamon Duffy, brining to life 16th century church wardens accounts.  I particularly liked "we have the money to repair the church roof..... when we can find a man to do it"

I loved that book.

[Evie]

I was able to find "Voices of Morebath" for Kindle on Amazon, so I've added that one to my collection. There were a few other books that looked like they were based on old parish records in various parts of the UK, but I wasn't sure if any of those were the one that Judith was referring to.

[JudithR]

Old Parish Life: A guide for the curious (Justin Lovell Ed, The Bunbury Press 2022)
From the intro:
"The guide arose from an (admittedly odd) enthusiasm for churchwardens' accounts"

"1457 For drink given to the ringers when it thundered...1d (Yeovil, Somerset)
1522 For a coat made when the Resurrection was played, for him that is playing the part of Almighty God...1s (Rye Sussex)"

Time covered, "broadly from medieval to Victorian times...as revealed in churchwardens' accounts and other records"