Deryni Rising

[Aquinas]

somewhere I read that in the Middle Ages, aborting a child wasn't the hotly-debated issue it is today, for there was a widely-held belief that there was no soul in the forming child until the 3rd month of pregnancy. 

Among others St Thomas Aquinas held that the rational soul (that part that makes a human human) did not exist until the end of the first trimester although the animal soul (anima) that made one alive did. Therefore as you say a 1st trimester abortion was not such a hot topic.

Sorry for resurecting a dead thread but I didn't think this warranted a new thread.

[JulianneTK]

Among others St Thomas Aquinas held that the rational soul (that part that makes a human human) did not exist until the end of the first trimester although the animal soul (anima) that made one alive did. Therefore as you say a 1st trimester abortion was not such a hot topic.
[/quote]

   AhhhH! That sounds like what I remember!!

[Elkhound]

There are several traditional herbal remedies that midwives had.

"Oh auntie, auntie, I'm in terrible trouble!  Terrible, terrible trouble."

"Sit down my dear, calm yourself.  It can't be all that bad.  Here, have some of my nice herbal tea."

Pennyroyale and slippery elm bark were two that I know of.  My own mother, and her mother before her, drank pennyroyale tea, and they both had only one child each.  Coincidence?  I think not.

[BalanceTheEnergies]

During his dressing down of Duncan about not telling him in advance about he and Dhugal announcing to everyone they were Deryni, Arilan mentioned his late friend Jorian.  Jorian was exposed as Deryni at his ordination and burned at the stake.  While he was burning, Arilan and everyone there were silenced when a "boyish" voice yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  Morgan revealed that he was at Jorian's execution when he was page to Brion.  It is my belief that it was Morgan who yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  If I'm right and Morgan reveals this to Arilan, maybe their relationship might change for the better.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Morgan was the right age then (thirteen), and the story tells us that finding a Deryni priest was a rare thing and a big deal. I'm sure de Nore or other clerics (who know Morgan is Deryni and don't like him having the king's favour) might insist young Alaric go witness the execution as a reminder of the clerics' power (put Morgan in his place. as it were). Brion might not feel able to overrule the clerics, and he might tell Morgan to suck it up and go to appease the bishops, if only so that he can retain his freedom against the coming fight with the Marluk (which happens the following year). Perhaps Brion might negotiate or stipulate that Morgan could go incognito (who's being punished here, Jorian or Morgan?) but not press further. Brion does strike me as a bit reticent in regards his powers and the power of the Church.

If Morgan was that boy, Arilan may not know, because after he revealed himself to Morgan and Duncan in High Deryni (after the reconciliation ceremony when Morgan broke his word and used his powers to contact Derry) Arilan had Morgan read his mind, and it's depicted as a one-way thing. I'd like to see this revealed (and explicitly to Arilan), and I thought about it for my proposed KKB sequel, but I'm not sure just where I'd put it. It's one of those details that wants pegging down.

[Alkari]

I think that KK confirmed in one of her Chats (this year, late last year?) that Alaric was not the boy who shouted out.  IIRC there was some discussion about this aspect of the Jorian scene, with Alaric's presence and the power of Brion vs the clerics.    I think that KK said she had at one stage considered having Alaric be the one who shouted out, but realised that it wouldn't really work because he was being watched very, very closely and had been told by Brion just to keep his head down (literally and figuratively!) and not do anything at all to draw any more attention from de Nore and co.   They would have just loved an excuse to burn another Deryni.

Anyway, with CM3 well on its way to being published, we should soon find out! 

[Laurna]

Oh,  we are so close to the answers being revealed. I am so looking for ward to CM3 being in print.
The day of Jorian's death obviously left its mark on both Alaric and Denis.  Because of it, I was always amazed that Alaric did not do everything in his power to dissuade Duncan from tempting the same fate.  I am sure it effected him severely when Duncan chose to move forward with his consecration.

In keeping with the opening of this thread,  I have to agree that DR is my favorite book and I always go back to it.  I may read the others out of sequence now and again, but I always reread the first one when I read any of the others.  Morgan considering how to fight is way out of the council room to keep from being burned as a traitor as the Queen is dictating. Kelson asserting himself as a true leader and king, saving the one man who had mentored and supported him as no other would.  And Alaric discovering he can heal. As I have proven, I am partial to the healing.  My second favorite book is the Quest for Saint Camber, where Dhugal proved his worthiness.

Nice thread, thank you for bringing it back into play.

[derynifanatic64]

Or maybe Alaric found a way throw his voice (like Jeff Dunham) and yell out that line?  He might also have found an isolated spot where he could escape to without being seen (I believe that there was a good-sized crowd that day) and be able to yell out that line with some security.

[tenworld]

there is a simpler explanation: that Alaric simply controlled the mind of some unsuspecting human to yell it out.  Alaric as a young teen must have been a handful.

[Texanu]

DR was the first book I've read about Deryni. It was very surprising - I was thinking about buying book for a long time, an abstract was exciting but  cover didn't correspond the abstract, so it spoiled  experience a little.
When I started reading I understood that this is the world I was looking for and here are heroes I dreamed to read aboout.)) 

Unexpected moments ( the same Council, oh! what is the unhoped outcome of it) , church - crown - these eternal bickering , though still unknown, but also sometimes makes nervous about him Duncan. Well, while reading the entire trilogy (especially at the forst time), it took me about two days, my stomach was tight bundle of nerves, prickly like a hedgehog.

And the moment that somehow no longer called ( I can be congratulated the first read to and from the theme on the forum  ) - the coronation itself , always fascinating - for any of the kings, in that moment, when Archbishop pronounces one sentence and for all Deryni there is an other one, much more valuble and deeper. Such a mysterious moment, from one book to the other.

Rereading the DR a couple of days ago, I paid particular attention to the moment when Kelson Alaric asks if he can replace Brion. Possibly, is pending CM3 - some issues become more urgent.
And another esch that understand only now - I love this trilogy for here is no so many deaths of so dear and so favorite heroes ... Long was upset when finished reading King Javan's year or Camber the heretic.

Arilan... I'm afraid I can not now take a significant part in the discussion about Arylan or  Jorian's penalty until re-read to the end. I didn't notice Arilan before it became clear that he was Deryni (or a bit earlier), but the way he behaved after the HD, I remember vaguely.  Later, if I have some interesting ideas, I will carefully write their.

[Raksha the Demon]

there is a simpler explanation: that Alaric simply controlled the mind of some unsuspecting human to yell it out.  Alaric as a young teen must have been a handful.

I haven't read the story (I don't have the anthology), but I certainly hope that Alaric did not force an unsuspecting human to yell out the words supporting poor Jorian - it wouldn't be right to force someone else to commit an act, however worthy, that could bring down the disapproval of the religious hierarchy on the human's head without his consent; especially since boyish voice implies that the human was not yet an adult.

[Shiral]

I think that if Alaric wanted this expressed, he was brave enough to say it himself in his own right. Given his adult scruples about the use of power, I seriously doubt he'd have used another kid as his puppet, since he realized the danger of saying ANYTHING to the condemned man in the presence of the Archbishop and his staff right then.

[whitelaughter]

I first read Deryni Rising as a teenager, and while I still think it is excellent, my attitude to the book has changed markedly over the last 30 plus years.

The most obvious difference is how Charissa appears to me. Reading it when I was Kelson's age? She was terrifying! Now: she's a young girl who wants to avenge her father...and numerous other relatives. While the book remains an awesome read, I'm more inclined to grieve when she dies that cheer.
And of course her death - like Brion's death - doesn't resolve anything, the feud continues with Wencit as the next pretender. And if she'd killed Kelson (who as others have pointed out, is at his best in this book) she then has to, while exhausted, face Nigel: she can't win.

Given the persecution of Deryni in Gwynedd, the Camberian Council should have been seeking to arrange a diplomatic marriage between Kelson and Charrisa, ending the bloody feud and providing the monarchy with the extra strength needed to stomp on the persecution. (And create a wildly different set of sequels with Kelson (and Morgan!) caught between the Church and the Queen!)

Loris - is self-contained and believable in this book, but his (in)actions become less believable after reading the following books. He has the resources to uncover Ian Howell and Jehana as Deryni - while he might keep Jehana in the dark, if he identified Ian then it wouldn't be difficult to find/fake evidence of working with Charissa and thus get Ian killed. As the Inquisitor who has unmasked a traitor, he would have been a far greater problem for Kelson.

He would probably also advise Kelson to abdicate in favour of Nigel, pointing out that Nigel as a grown man has a better chance of defeating Charissa (and we know that Loris prayed thanks for Brion's victory over The Marluk, so wants the Festillic threat defeated) with the unspoken goal of removing a deryni halfblood from the throne.

[Elkhound]

Marriage between Charissa and Kelson.

I'm trying to picture the reaction of either of them to the suggestion.

In any case, it would have done no good in the long run as, per the codex, Charissa couldn't have children.

[revanne]

Loving all your discussion starters Whitelaughter.

I too have sympathy for Charissa especially having read some of the back story in The King's Deryni.  However I keep reminding myself that this is a two-hundred year old claim that is actually going no-where. It is hard to see that she would have any support from any of the real power brokers within Gwynedd - certainly not any of the Dukes - just a few discontented nobles with an eye to the main chance.

I'm not sure - please jump in and correct me, folks- that Wencit has any Festilic pretensions, I think that line dies with Charissa. He certainly doesn't intend to rule Gwynedd in place of Torenth. My understanding is that he sees a weak neighbour, torn by internal divisions with a young inexperienced king and looks for an easy conquest.

I cannot see either how a marriage between Kelson and Charissa would have been acceptable. Prior to Kelson the Haldanes have spent two hundred years pretending that their powers have absolutely nothing to do with the Deryni - in fact they come from a dimetrically opposed direction. To use the language of Merseyside (where I currently live and minister) - the Haldane powers come from the Big Fella, the Deryni from the Other Fella.

I don't think that anyone - not even she  herself- has any reason whatsoever to suspect that Jehana is Deryni prior to Kelson's coronation. Neither for most of the book has Loris any reason to suppose that Kelson is half-Deryni and proud of who he is. The only fly in the ointment as far as Loris is concerned is Morgan and once Brion has died he thinks that he has that sorted with Jehana's connivance. Ian far from being someone to be unmasked, is an ally in that he is busy spreading little nuggets of poison bait about Morgan. Personally I think that what pushes Loris over the brink into madness, is Duncan's involvement in magic - two hundred years of the "hand of God" keeping the priesthood free from Deryni taint has been seen to fail. If Duncan, how many others, Loris must wonder.

I don't think voluntary abdication is in the mindset of a culture based on primogeniture and the divine right of kings. Neither do I think Nigel would have accepted disinheriting his nephew (Conall now, but that's a whole different can of worms!). Challenging primogeniture for whatever reason would have risked undermining the whole basis on which feudal society is based.

In certain countries abdication is still not a word mentioned before one's sovereign. 

[Laurna]

I cannot see either how a marriage between Kelson and Charissa would have been acceptable. Prior to Kelson the Haldanes have spent two hundred years pretending that their powers have absolutely nothing to do with the Deryni - in fact they come from a dimetrically opposed direction. To use the language of Merseyside (where I currently live and minister) - the Haldane powers come from the Big Fella, the Deryni from the Other Fella.

Revanne, cleverly phrased!

Kelson and Charissa would have been a disastrous match. I can't even imagine it. And not surprised I never imagined it before this. I fear, I have never seen Charissa as anything other than a murderous witch. I am thinking that if wshe had won over a good percentage of the nobles by means other than seduction, than she may have had a more viable claim. Perhaps she should have enspelled all of the Gwynedd lords of the east to her side first, to make it appear she had a viable claim and the backing of half the lords. Split the kingdom in two. Then if she won the duel she planed to enspell everyone else. As it is, I do not see how she planed to rule with only Ian on her side.  Now, when Kelson thwarted her plans by beating her in the dual, these nobles who had been brainwashed become clear minded and realize how dangerous Deryni really can be, thus Damning the Deryni even more. What if Loris had been one of those enspelled? Morgan's head really would have been on the block then. Ummm!  Oh dear! Best not to rewrite what is written, I say.