Re: Work In Progress--Deryni Action Figure Project (was Duncan Action Figure)

[Evie]

Does the picture show a scattering of roses, or are there a specific number (well, I suppose in either case there'd be a specific number! LOL!) and how are they arranged?

In other words, is it more like this:



Or closer to something like this:


Or are they lined up and going in a certain direction?

[Jerusha]

There are three roses, aligned like the second picture.

If I can take a decent picture of the DA cover, I'll send it to you via email.

[Evie]

There are three roses, aligned like the second picture.

If I can take a decent picture of the DA cover, I'll send it to you via email.

Would it look something like this, only (assuming Cassan's artists are worth whatever Jared pays them) much better?  



Oh wait, seeing it uploaded here, I just realized...it CAN'T look like that, unless KK is breaking heraldic rules again with the McLain arms.  (I say again because Morgan's "green on black" gryphon would break those rules as well, but I imagine the heralds weren't eager to argue that point with the darkling Deryni Duke!  And there is some historical precedent for a few, very powerful, individuals breaking the tincture rules that way, though it's normally royals using gold on silver or vice versa.)  So my guess is that the roses are on a white field and that it's the chief--the top part--that's meant to be blue, with the lion sleeping peacefully on that blue background.  I take it, since you mentioned not knowing the lion's color, that what you've got is a black and white line drawing?  Or is there any shading?

[Evie]

OK, in light of that last realization, let's try this again:  



I think the blazon for this, if it exists anywhere in the books, would be "Per fess azure and argent, in chief a lion dormant or, and in base three roses gules."  If there is a "herald-speak" description of these arms somewhere in the novels and it says something radically different, then it's back to the drawing board for me.   

And now I'm obsessing over that darn lion!  Gold or silver would work, as well as a natural-colored lion.  Or, I suppose, one of the heraldic "furs," though I don't think the resulting device would look as pretty.

[Alkari]

What was the desription in DC at the funeral for Kevin and Bronwyn?  We get a description of the Morgan arms for Bronwyn, which IIRC, was written in heraldic terms, and I thought there was also one for Kevin?

Depending on the size of the banner, it should be possible to get a reasonable attempt at the roses.   I was wondering if a very fine cross stitchmight be easier than petit point, as you can then outline the details of the lion and the rose petals in black or just a darker shade of the colour.  The second of your rose designs, the one specifically gules, would not need outlining of course, but the lion certaibly will, or he becomes a fairly indistinct shape, unless it was possible to leave some of the lines as background colour (as with the roses).   

Another excellent question for Chat when KK next appears! 

[Jerusha]

All I have is a line drawing (which I will email to you shortly).

The passage in DC that describes the shield is:  McLain:  argent, three roses gules; on a chief azure, a lion dormant argent...

So we do have the colour of the lion afterall!

[Evie]

All I have is a line drawing (which I will email to you shortly).

The passage in DC that describes the shield is:  McLain:  argent, three roses gules; on a chief azure, a lion dormant argent...

So we do have the colour of the lion afterall!

Yes, not to mention a simpler way to blazoning the fool thing!    Looks like that last rough sketch will work out; I just need to transform that lion from gold to silver.



And here we are!  Only problem is, that's only Duncan's arms for a short while.  There's probably some mark of cadency once he abdicates (see my Duncan's Heraldry thread), but I'll need to ask KK if she's conveniently following the "What the heck do we do with the Duke of Windsor's arms?" rule for blazoning an abdicated ruler/nobleman or if she has some better idea.

[Evie]

Duncan's personal arms by 1136, after his abdication, might look like this if KK decides to use what I'm calling the "Duke of Windsor rule":



That's meant to be a tiny bishop's mitre in the central point of the mark of cadency, but I only had time to do so much fiddling with the clip art.

[Alkari]

You don't half want to make life complicated, do you!   Never mind getting the lion and roses, now you want a bishop's mitre and cadency mark!  

If the banner has been made after his abdication as Duke, would he still wish to retain any mark of cadency, even along the 'Duke of Windsor' rule?   The other option would be a distinct one-off personal variation, acknowledging both his McLain heritage and his ecclesiastical status.  On the blue chief, have the McLain sleeping lion beside a cross or a mitre.  (Or the lion centred, with a small cross either side).  The three red roses on a silver ground would remain below.  I will leave it to you to do the photoshopping, Evie  

ETA:  This was the sort of basic design I was thinking of, except that the chief would be all blue and not divided, and of course, the roses would be red on a silver ground.  (Appropriate enough as a precedent for rector Duncan, as this particular shield is that of Kings College, Cambridge!)

[Evie]

I could have the sleeping lion wearing the mitre, but then it might look as though the heralds think Duncan spends all his time sleeping on the job! 

[Evie]

This was the sort of basic design I was thinking of, except that the chief would be all blue and not divided, and of course, the roses would be red on a silver ground.  (Appropriate enough as a precedent for rector Duncan, as this particular shield is that of Kings College, Cambridge!)

For this sort of device to work, I think the chief would either have to be divided like in your example, or else you'd have to have three charges up at the top (the cross-sleeping lion-cross idea you mentioned earlier, or else something of that sort), because otherwise you would be violating medieval rules of heraldic symmetry, I think.  At least I don't recall ever seeing two unlike charges side by side like that on a single field, though I'm happy to be corrected if you can find me a period example of that being done.  Two items combined in a single charge, such as a sleeping lion wearing a mitre, yes, but the blazon would reflect this as one charge (something like "a lion dormant wearing a mitre"), not as two separate ones (as in "on a chief azure, a lion dormant and a mitre").  It might be possible to do something like "on a chief azure, a lion dormant flanked by two crosses" without violating the rules of heraldry, but I'm not certain. I'd need to research that.

[Alkari]

There are various examples of two or three designs on a chief - see below.  

This first one with the lion and a book either side would be good for Duncan as rector, LOL, but you could just change the books to crosses.


Another one with a rose and two rings on the chief:-


And this is one for the university of Pennsylvania -


There are some modern examples on this site:  http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/lancs_pre74.html

Whether or not this sor of things was possible in medieval times, I don't know, but there are certainly many examples where three of the same symbol were shown in chief (roses, fleur de lys, etc).  Clearly it has been possible to vary this at some stage to have a central symbol flanked by two others.

[Evie]

Yes, those work because they meet the medieval concepts of symmetry (which is slightly different from our modern "mirror image" view of it) and balance.  In the first example, the lion is flanked by identical books; therefore, it is "balanced."  It is not a single book set beside a single lion on the same chief.  Also, you'll notice the books face the same way rather than looking like mirror images of each other, and that's because that's what was considered more "symmetrical" to the medieval viewer.  And in the base, the three roses can stand on that white field completely on their own as in the McLain arms, or they can be separated like in this one by a chevron, which is a second sort of charge but one which acts as a field divider that helps maintain the symmetry and balance.

In your second example you've got exactly the same situation, just swap out the types of charges.

What wouldn't look medieval is if, for instance, you had a single book and a single lion in that red chief, or if you had that white base but filled it with a lion, a griffin, and a unicorn, and there wasn't any sort of field division between those charges.  You can get by with having a major charge surrounded with smaller minor charges on that base--for instance, you could have a big cat in the middle with a smaller star at the top two corners and the same size star centered below the cat at the bottom of the shield.  But again, that works because it goes along with the medieval concept of balance and symmetry in a way that two unlike side-by-side or stacked objects would not.  

Is that any clearer?

[Alkari]

Oh yes, I understand the symmetry.   So - what do you want for a special Duncan McLain shield and banner?  Books or crosses ?  Or do we just try for a single terrified lion cowering with his paws over his eyes, growling something rude about people with a fascination for Action Duncan

[Evie]

ROFL @ "Lion cowerant"!   

Actually, given that Duncan is KK's character and that tomorrow is Sunday, I'm rather hoping she'll be in chat tomorrow evening so I can ask her if she's got a preference.  She is, after all, the Final Authority on the subject.