Hi, this is my first post and I'm turning to you all for info and advice.
I'm trying to put together a Gabrilite Habit for a convention and I am at a bit of a lose end. The description of it at the end of Deryni Magic is a white cassoc with cowl and hood, and a white mantel. I seem to remember a different description in the old RPG, but my copy is currently missing, and I could be wrong. Am I?
Mostly, though, I have been wrestling with the Badge: it is a cross with "flared ends" in a circle. Thats a great description, but which one? I can think of at least 3 cross patterns with flared ends. I am thinking of a Cross Clechy or Formy, chiefly because I can do them at my level of embroidery :).
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Welcome! I am not at home right now, but I have a copy of the RPG, so I'll see if there's a better description in that when I get home. My guess is that KK is referring to a cross formy, but if you are able to get to the Sunday chats, you could ask her yourself. Most Sundays we meet with Katherine in our forum's chatroom at 7 PM US Eastern Time (whatever that translates to where you live), but on the first Sundays of each month (including the upcoming one) we meet two hours earlier so our UK members can participate without having to stay up until 1 AM or later. The RPG may have a picture of a Gabrilite; if so, I'll look to see what sort of cross is used.
I have no good information, but I would love to see the finished habit, if you are willing to share photos of it once you have it done! :D
OK, I'm home. Summarized from the Deryni Adventure Game book:
Device: Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent.
Healer's Badge: Couped right hand Vert pierced in the palm with a white star of eight points. (The secular Healer's Badge is the same but with those colors reversed.)
Cowled white robe, a white cincture, and a white mantle. No tonsure, but the four-strand braid.
Thank you, both for the greeting, but also the input!
The cross seems odd though. I think that Formy is more correct, Fitchy looks more Micheline.
I shall join the chat on Sunday, probably late. I have questions about liturgy and the Rules used by the communities as well. Thank you again, and as soon as I am done I shall post pics.
I think the cross fitchy is used for both, but the Michaeline one has a flame behind it, if I'm remembering it correctly, and also the cross fitchy in the Michaeline device doesn't have arms of equal length like the Gabrilite cross does. The bottom part of the cross ends with a sort of point--I forget the heraldic term for that, but it's emblazoned in the RPG book. I can look that one up for you too when I get home. The Michaeline badge is pictured but not the Gabrilite one.
We'll be glad to have you at chat! Fortunately the early chats (such as we're having this Sunday) tend to run a bit longer than the regular chats, because KK can usually stay online longer for those, so even if you arrive late, hopefully you can get your questions in before she has to leave. Or at any time you can feel free to send your questions via Private Message to me or to DesertRose and we'd be glad to ask them for you even if you aren't able to attend the chat yourself. (Whenever KK shows up at chat, those chat logs end up archived in our Chat Archives section, so there will be a record of her answers there.) But I hope you are able to be there. KK doesn't get to the Forum board very often, but she enjoys meeting newcomers in the chatroom. :)
I would love to see photos of the costume! I did a Servant of Saint Camber habit a few years back--all linen, hand-sewn, LOTS of work but it was worth it, if a little too warm to be wearing to DragonCon in Hotlanta in August/early September.
I went through the Deryni Archives looking for the Gabrilite heraldry. I was not able to find that, but I did find the Order of St Michael Heraldry. There is a full page dedicated to the Order of Saint Michael in Volume 3 written by KK and Michael C Mahaney. I am copying here the image from the bottom of the page. I hope this helps with your Gabrilite habit
This image is from the Deryni Archives Volume 3 page three.
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_03_06_15_3_21_04.jpeg&hash=78f4f3ae99834ff6be48bcd04d8b316a08919d8b)
Quote from: Laurna on June 03, 2015, 03:29:03 PM
I went through the Deryni Archives looking for the Gabrilite heraldry. I was not able to find that, but I did find the Order of St Michael Heraldry. There is a full page dedicated to the Order of Saint Michael in Volume 3 written by KK and Michael C Mahaney. I am copying here the image from the bottom of the page. I hope this helps with your Gabrilite habit
This image is from the Deryni Archives Volume 3 page three.
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_03_06_15_3_21_04.jpeg&hash=78f4f3ae99834ff6be48bcd04d8b316a08919d8b)
There is also a Sisterhood of the Second Order of St. Michael. What is their habit like?
QuoteThere is also a Sisterhood of the Second Order of St. Michael. What is their habit like?
There is? I don't recall that at all; I guess it's time for me to reread those Camber era books! (Not that I need extra encouragement; it's more a matter of lack of time, plus not having them in an easily portable format yet. I don't count hardcover books as easily portable.)
I had thought that the badges would be on the cowl, not the mantel since that could be removed indoors/in a House of the Order. IRW, most orders don't put badges on the habits, per se, so this is a more theoretical discussion than it may appear.
Ok, so now you have me playing in the Deryni Archives. I found what you are looking for and it was right before my eyes and did not see it the first few times I searched the issues over ;D
But first let me post the quote on the Order of St. Michael that went with the image I posted before.
QuoteDeryni Archives volume 3 page three excerpt
The Michaeline armorial bearings (Azure, a cross moline fitchy Argent, Issuing from a flame Gules fimbriated Or)
A Michaeline Knight is permitted to bear the full achievement of his order: i.e. a blazon on both front and back of his surcoat, the same on the shoulder and back of his mantle, the characteristic white belt signifying knighthood, and of course, the Michaeline charge on his shield.
The Michaeline priest is likewise entitled to the full achievement on his mantle but would wear a red cincture with fringed ends around the waist of his dark blue cassock. If, like Joram MacRorie, he is also a knight, he would most likely wear the white sash of Michaeline Knighthood with his cassock. When clad in monkish robes instead of cassock, he might wear a red cord-- or red and white intertwined if he happens to be both priest and knight.
A novice aspiring to the Michaeline Knighthood would wear the blue Michaeline surcoat over his armour, but instead of the inflamed cross he would bear the white cross only. This brazon would appear fore and aft on his surcoat, at the shoulder and back of his mantle, and upon his shield, in each case on the characteristic blue field. In place of the knightly white belt, he might wear a simple sword belt of black leather.
Lay brothers of the Michaeline Order would wear a monk's robe of Michaeline blue with Plain white cross, a yellow or gold waist cord and a plain blue mantle.
Now, as to my find on the Order of Gabrilites-
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_04_06_15_12_54_26.jpeg&hash=5018220bf3e4af84b4bea661abe19160a44b2eb6)
The artist is Thomas Dietz. There is no words with this image. It is a portion of the image on the cover of Deryni Archives Volume 5. In my mind this is the choir at the Gabrilite Cathedral.
Quote from: Evie on June 02, 2015, 09:40:38 PM
OK, I'm home. Summarized from the Deryni Adventure Game book:
Device: Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent.
Healer's Badge: Couped right hand Vert pierced in the palm with a white star of eight points. (The secular Healer's Badge is the same but with those colors reversed.)
Cowled white robe, a white cincture, and a white mantle. No tonsure, but the four-strand braid.
With the description of the device Evie has given, I think the crosses would be improved if they had flared ends.
Quote from: Laurna on June 04, 2015, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Evie on June 02, 2015, 09:40:38 PM
OK, I'm home. Summarized from the Deryni Adventure Game book:
Device: Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent.
Healer's Badge: Couped right hand Vert pierced in the palm with a white star of eight points. (The secular Healer's Badge is the same but with those colors reversed.)
Cowled white robe, a white cincture, and a white mantle. No tonsure, but the four-strand braid.
With the description of the device Evie has given, I think the crosses would be improved if they had flared ends. I think "Fitchy"-ends would be nice to see within the circle.
An equal armed cross fitchy would essentially look like a cross pattee alisee (or cross alisee pattee, depending on who you ask):
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmychurchtoolbox.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FCross-Alisee-Patee1.jpg&hash=dd91b0d737b64750abf4e107020139af575a93da)
(Ignore the bordered edge)
Or at least I really can't see much of a difference, unless a cross fitchy's arms are a bit straighter before the flare. I will confess to being extremely partial to that charge, btw, since that's the main charge on my SCA device. :D
No Second Order Sisters appear in the books. In one of the short stories, Joram mentions them, describing them as 'rare' and 'frightening'. (Why the latter, I'm not sure.)
Perhaps if there is ever a "Deryni Tales II", someone might write some more about them.
QuoteAn equal armed cross fitchy would essentially look like a cross pattee alisee (or cross alisee pattee, depending on who you ask):
Oops, I meant to say it would essentially look like that if drawn inside a circle like the ones in the illustration Laurna posted. But otherwise I imagine the ends would be straight.
Does any one know where it is possible to get back copies of the Deryni Archives - I emailed the link a couple of years ago but got no reply. It may be even if they're available it wouldn't be possible to ship them to the UK but I'd like to give it a go.
I'd love to know as well. I got a response from Julianne some years ago re: how to make a story submission, but no replies to subsequent email since then. :(
I purchased mine on Ebay. But I would have preferred to pay for them through the publisher, if they really have any back copies left. I still need the last 4 or 5 issues.
I just read a fun story in volume 6, Windows on the Soul by Mary Frances Zambreno. Lovely story about Barrett de Lanney and the Healer's gift of Alaric Morgan.
Evie, I am thinking the above cross needs to be a little straighter before it flares to meet the inner edge of the circle. I also like the small indent in the flare where the cross meets the circle like in the Michaeline cross. That way the the four small circles within the thick outer circle at the end of each cross arm would make it almost look like a floury cross. Does that make since? I am not sure I could draw it. I would love to hear KK's response.
I purchased my copies of the Deryni Archives through Julianne, but it was several years ago.
It is interesting to read the older editions, and note how things changed over time. The King's Justice was originally planned as The Return of the Queen.
Here is the iron on of the pattern I'm going to try. The fabric is flower sack and in going to use DMC for the first one. I'll switch to a hand dyed floss for a more formal or "period" one.
For some reason I can never see photo attachments in this forum, but I have no trouble viewing the photos that are linked to in the message body. I know others here are able to see attachments (or some others, anyway) since this has come up before. Is it a setting in my preferences that I need to change?
Quote from: Laurna on June 04, 2015, 01:03:58 PM
Ok, so now you have me playing in the Deryni Archives. I found what you are looking for and it was right before my eyes and did not see it the first few times I searched the issues over ;D
But first let me post the quote on the Order of St. Michael that went with the image I posted before.
QuoteDeryni Archives volume 3 page three excerpt
The Michaeline armorial bearings (Azure, a cross moline fitchy Argent, Issuing from a flame Gules fimbriated Or)
A Michaeline Knight is permitted to bear the full achievement of his order: i.e. a blazon on both front and back of his surcoat, the same on the shoulder and back of his mantle, the characteristic white belt signifying knighthood, and of course, the Michaeline charge on his shield.
The Michaeline priest is likewise entitled to the full achievement on his mantle but would wear a red cincture with fringed ends around the waist of his dark blue cassock. If, like Joram MacRorie, he is also a knight, he would most likely wear the white sash of Michaeline Knighthood with his cassock. When clad in monkish robes instead of cassock, he might wear a red cord-- or red and white intertwined if he happens to be both priest and knight.
A novice aspiring to the Michaeline Knighthood would wear the blue Michaeline surcoat over his armour, but instead of the inflamed cross he would bear the white cross only. This brazon would appear fore and aft on his surcoat, at the shoulder and back of his mantle, and upon his shield, in each case on the characteristic blue field. In place of the knightly white belt, he might wear a simple sword belt of black leather.
Lay brothers of the Michaeline Order would wear a monk's robe of Michaeline blue with Plain white cross, a yellow or gold waist cord and a plain blue mantle.
So I'm guessing that the Second Order Sisters wear a Michaeline Blue habit with a yellow cincture, a blue mantle if/when they go out, a wimple with a blue veil. The wimple might be white or yellow.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 05, 2015, 07:12:50 AM
Quote from: Laurna on June 04, 2015, 01:03:58 PM
Ok, so now you have me playing in the Deryni Archives. I found what you are looking for and it was right before my eyes and did not see it the first few times I searched the issues over ;D
But first let me post the quote on the Order of St. Michael that went with the image I posted before.
QuoteDeryni Archives volume 3 page three excerpt
The Michaeline armorial bearings (Azure, a cross moline fitchy Argent, Issuing from a flame Gules fimbriated Or)
A Michaeline Knight is permitted to bear the full achievement of his order: i.e. a blazon on both front and back of his surcoat, the same on the shoulder and back of his mantle, the characteristic white belt signifying knighthood, and of course, the Michaeline charge on his shield.
The Michaeline priest is likewise entitled to the full achievement on his mantle but would wear a red cincture with fringed ends around the waist of his dark blue cassock. If, like Joram MacRorie, he is also a knight, he would most likely wear the white sash of Michaeline Knighthood with his cassock. When clad in monkish robes instead of cassock, he might wear a red cord-- or red and white intertwined if he happens to be both priest and knight.
A novice aspiring to the Michaeline Knighthood would wear the blue Michaeline surcoat over his armour, but instead of the inflamed cross he would bear the white cross only. This brazon would appear fore and aft on his surcoat, at the shoulder and back of his mantle, and upon his shield, in each case on the characteristic blue field. In place of the knightly white belt, he might wear a simple sword belt of black leather.
Lay brothers of the Michaeline Order would wear a monk's robe of Michaeline blue with Plain white cross, a yellow or gold waist cord and a plain blue mantle.
So I'm guessing that the Second Order Sisters wear a Michaeline Blue habit with a yellow cincture, a blue mantle if/when they go out, a wimple with a blue veil. The wimple might be white or yellow.
That would be pretty. I wonder if there are Gabrilite nuns? We know from DM that there were female Healers and that most of them ended up using their gifts in convent infirmariums (infirmaria?), but would they have been attached to other monastic orders or would there also be the option of some sort of Gabrilite education and/or religious vocation for female Healers?
Quote from: Evie on June 05, 2015, 08:27:44 AM
That would be pretty. I wonder if there are Gabrilite nuns? We know from DM that there were female Healers and that most of them ended up using their gifts in convent infirmariums (infirmaria?), but would they have been attached to other monastic orders or would there also be the option of some sort of Gabrilite education and/or religious vocation for female Healers?
There's not even a passing mention of a Gabrilite Sisterhood, but there must have been some provision for the training of women healers, especially the ones with a powerful Gift.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 05, 2015, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: Evie on June 05, 2015, 08:27:44 AM
That would be pretty. I wonder if there are Gabrilite nuns? We know from DM that there were female Healers and that most of them ended up using their gifts in convent infirmariums (infirmaria?), but would they have been attached to other monastic orders or would there also be the option of some sort of Gabrilite education and/or religious vocation for female Healers?
There's not even a passing mention of a Gabrilite Sisterhood, but there must have been some provision for the training of women healers, especially the ones with a powerful Gift.
One would think, since the Healing gift was so rare even in the best of times that they would have wanted all potential Healers to be identified and properly trained, male or female. Maybe that's a question to bring up in chat this Sunday?
Good morning Friarjohn00, I think it would be a good idea to email KK with the questions you might want to ask about the Order of Gabrilites before chat on Sunday. Send the email to Evie or DesertRose, and ask either of them forward it to KK. In this way, our beloved author may have time to consider the answers. I too am interested in her thoughts, but I believe it may take some time to put the answer together properly.
Another question would be if Michaeline blue differs from that of the Gabrilite blue? I was surprised that the cross for the Gabrilite's was blue and not green, as the hand of the healer is green.
Friarjohn00, can you please post your embroidery again. I am not able to see the attachment.
I did a rough computer drawing of what I was thinking about and I will post it here.
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_05_06_15_4_12_39.jpeg&hash=a76fbb02aa8ca38d7fb26cc7a351e1766a1849a6)
Is this close to what you were thinking?
If it's "Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent", that would be a white (or silver) equal-armed fitchy cross on a blue background.
Quote from: Evie on June 05, 2015, 04:23:41 PM
If it's "Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent", that would be a white (or silver) equal-armed fitchy cross on a blue background.
I miss read it, thank you. I was thinking that if the Habit was all white then the cross was blue, Like our RedCross in modern day is red on white. My missed perception. The question then is- where is the edge of the blue badge? Is there really a separate circle that is Argent around the cross with more blue beyond the circle, or is the outer margin of the badge just circular shape with the blue background? After seeing the artist rendition that I posted above, I was thinking that the circle had the same thickness as the cross and was separate from the background. But perhaps it is more like your image, instead. I will play with it tonight when I get home and correct the colors.
Badges are usually circular, so "Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent" would be translated as "On a blue background (the background color is normally described first), an equal-armed cross fitchy that is white (or silver)." There would not be a border around it unless that was described in the heraldic blazon. Not sure what the exact order of such a description might be, but possibly something like "Within a bordure [color], azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy argent." Since the blazon in the RPG does not mention a bordure, there probably isn't one. So you'd have a round blue badge with a white equal-armed cross fitchy on it, and that badge would be sewn onto the white habit. In the artistic depiction you posted, I think the row of circles was meant as an artistic motif with the Gabrilite and Healer's badges interspersed within the round "frames," but those borders are not actually part of either badge's heraldic blazon.
Quote from: Laurna on June 05, 2015, 12:26:45 PM
Another question would be if Michaeline blue differs from that of the Gabrilite blue? I was surprised that the cross for the Gabrilite's was blue and not green, as the hand of the healer is green.
I didn't see this earlier. KK showed me the color she considers to be Michaeline blue once, and it is a shade of blue that is just a tad lighter than navy blue. I think she called it soldier blue, although a search for the key words "soldier blue color" (don't just search "Soldier Blue" or you get lots of photos of a movie poster featuring a mostly naked Native American!) is kind of all over the place in terms of colors that come up in Google Images. The color she described comes probably closest to what I would call Doctor Who's TARDIS Blue.
Green is a color associated with healing and, in this case, Healers, but remember that not all Healers were associated with the Gabrilite Order, and there might have been other reasons to make a clear distinction between a badge related to Gabrilites and a badge related to Healers, even though there would certainly have been people qualified to wear both badges. Also notice that the secularnHealer's badge is the same as the Gabrilite Order's Healer's badge except with the colors reversed. I took a photo of one that I think KK embroidered and shrank the image down to fit in a jewelry finding for Mini-Rhys's Healer badge cloak clasp.
Oh, I forgot to mention earlier, but seeing your drawing again reminds me, there wouldn't be the eight-pointed star in the Gabrilite Order's cross fitchy badge, assuming the blazon listed in the RPG is correct, although that star is in the right palm symbol that appears on the green and white Healer badges.
I wonder if Thomas Deitz the artist was the same person as Tom Deitz the fantasy novelist? If so, those round circles around all of those badges in the artwork are almost certainly meant to be framing bits of the furniture the badges are displayed on, and possibly raised higher than the roundels themselves, since Tom Deitz was in the SCA (in my own Kingdom, in fact) and presumably would have known something about heraldry or at least would have known where to look up the information. Though maybe he got an incomplete blazon, or else KK hadn't decided to make those equal-armed crosses fitchy yet, so he was going by old information. Unfortunately he is no longer with us, so that's a question we're not likely to get an answer for, in this life anyway. :'(
We have the description of the Healer's Badge for Gabrielites and for lay/secular Healers, but what about religious/monastic Healers who are members of other Orders?
LOL, I know, you know how much I love embellishments... sigh... I rather like the 8 star embellishment... I will leave it where it belongs, on the healer's hand.
Perhaps these are better.
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_06_06_15_4_17_59.jpeg&hash=f2f33fe1fbb142eb3b55dc1a5ff0f9183fbec6f5)
Equal-armed 1) Cross Fitchy 2) Cross Moline 3) Cross Moline Fitchy
And though it is sad to hear Tom Dietz is not longer with us, I think it is nice that he was once part of your SCA group. You will have to ask others that knew him if he did the artist cover for Deryni Archives so many years ago.
Quote from: Laurna on June 06, 2015, 04:26:27 AM
LOL, I know, you know how much I love embellishments... sigh... I rather like the 8 star embellishment... I will leave it where it belongs, on the healer's hand.
Perhaps these are better.
(https://rhemuthcastle.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhemuthcastle.com%2Fgallery%2F18693_06_06_15_4_17_59.jpeg&hash=f2f33fe1fbb142eb3b55dc1a5ff0f9183fbec6f5)
Equal-armed 1) Cross Fitchy 2) Cross Moline 3) Cross Moline Fitchy
And though is it sad to hear Tom Dietz is not longer with us, I think it nice that he was once part of your SCA group. You will have to ask others that knew him if he did the artist cover for Deryni Archives so many years ago.
Yes, I know you and your love of embellishments! ;D But here is why, when it comes to heraldry, the device needs to be emblazoned
exactly as described in the blazon. In an age when a great many people were illiterate, the heraldic arms or badges were essentially people's ID cards. Even if their arms were similar (for instance, if a son's arms were exactly the same as his father's except that his had a mark of cadency at the top that showed he was the eldest son, or the second son, etc.), a person looking at them ought to be able to say, "Oh, that's Lord X" or "That's Lord X's heir," etc. Or in the case of a group's badge, they'd need to be able to tell for certain, "This person/item belongs to the Gabrilite order," not just "Hm...that looks sort of Gabrilitish, but maybe it's some splinter group that broke off from the Order and is trying to pass itself off as Gabrilite?"
In modern day terms, changing the emblazon is pretty much the same thing as me looking at my driver's license and saying, "Hm, this looks OK, but I think it would look nicer if I stick Catherine Zeta-Jones' photo in this corner rather than my own photo. She has dark hair and brown eyes like me, so it's really not that much of a difference, but she's prettier, so it will just be a nice little embellishment. Oh, and you know, I'll just tweak my name also. I rather like the name Catherine Zeta-Jones...." What I'd end up with might be a prettier driver's license, but as a photo ID for me it would become absolutely useless. If I were to drop it in the mall, no one would show up at Mall Security with it asking to have me paged; they'd page Catherine Zeta-Jones. :D Worse, this could be constituted as identity theft or false credentials. In the medieval world, they took their heraldry equally seriously. You could have a little bit of artistic licence in how you drew something as long as it still matched exactly with the blazon--for instance, one artist drawing the Haldane lion might draw it with a big fluffy mane and beautifully drawn facial features, while another artist might draw it with a spikier mane and less skillfully drawn features, but that animal still has to be recognizably a lion, it still has to be the main charge, and it has to be drawn with its arms and legs in a particular position and facing a certain way (rampant) with his head facing the viewer (guardant). It must be gold (or yellow) since that's what the blazon says, and you can't just add random stuff to it like a rose between its teeth unless the blazon is changed to reflect this also, but then it becomes an ID for someone else at that point, not The Haldane's arms anymore.
So getting back to our badges, the "Azure, an equal-armed cross fitchy Argent" emblazon (the #1 example in your image) works perfectly well as an identifier for the Gabriite Order, and it's faithful to the description that KK (I presume?) created for it. Let's not try to turn it into the Ordo Catherine Zeta-Jones! ;) (Even though, personally, my favorite of those badges is #2, it doesn't have the same symbolic significance. The reason the cross fitchy has that point at the bottom was that it started off as a Crusader's Cross, and that pointed bottom could be driven into the ground wherever they were. Remember that the Gabrilites are not just Healers, they are also a knightly order, and as that order spread throughout the land, it too planted the Gabrilite Cross wherever it established a monastic House of the Order. So #1 might not look as decorative, but it makes a symbolic statement.)
Tom's Wikipedia entry indicates he also did fantasy art, so the picture could well be by the same Tom Deitz. However, the SCA Tom Deitz belonged to a group several hours away in Georgia (my Kingdom encompasses all of Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and teeny bits of other states I think), so I doubt I'll have a chance to ask his friends if they knew of him doing any Deryni art, since I haven't been to an event out that way since my son was a toddler. DH knew him a little bit, but he didn't know.
Quote from: Elkhound on June 05, 2015, 11:02:34 PM
We have the description of the Healer's Badge for Gabrielites and for lay/secular Healers, but what about religious/monastic Healers who are members of other Orders?
My guess is that anyone who started out as a Michaeline (or some other order) but who showed a talent for Healing would have been steered to the Gabrilites or Varnarites for training, since those were the experts. But I think the Healers badges are for Healers no matter what other affiliations they might have, so if someone was trained by the Gabrilites like Rhys Thuryn was, but later decided to become a Michaeline Knight rather than joining the Gabrilites or becoming a secular Healer, they'd probably wear the Michaeline badge and whichever Healer's badge was most appropriate for their status (religious or lay brother).
I agree the first image is most accurate for the RPG description. However, the original question is still left unanswered. Does the conical source truly say it is a "flared cross"? If it is flared, then the type of flare does not appear to be named in the badge description. Therefore, the artist is left to make a guess.
The Michaeline badge states it has a Moline flare so that is why I chose Moline as in image #3, but I will agree that this is too similar to the Michaeline badge for the Gabrilites badge unless the one order is an offshoot of the other. But I do not think that this is the situation between these two orders. For me, it is just a matter of artistic curiosity and a little more education in Heraldry, so I will wait to see if FriarJohn00 finds the answer.
Quote from: Evie on June 06, 2015, 01:59:29 PM
Quote from: Elkhound on June 05, 2015, 11:02:34 PM
We have the description of the Healer's Badge for Gabrielites and for lay/secular Healers, but what about religious/monastic Healers who are members of other Orders?
My guess is that anyone who started out as a Michaeline (or some other order) but who showed a talent for Healing would have been steered to the Gabrilites or Varnarites for training, since those were the experts. But I think the Healers badges are for Healers no matter what other affiliations they might have, so if someone was trained by the Gabrilites like Rhys Thuryn was, but later decided to become a Michaeline Knight rather than joining the Gabrilites or becoming a secular Healer, they'd probably wear the Michaeline badge and whichever Healer's badge was most appropriate for their status (religious or lay brother).
But other Orders need healers in their ranks. Enclosed orders need someone to run their infirmaries, and the Michaelines, as a military order, need people to take care of brothers who get wounded. It makes more sense to send them for training in the specific healing aspects to the Gabrielites than to ask the Gabrielites to send brothers on 'detached duty' as it were. Particularly for the Michelines, given the pacifist orientation of the Gabrielites.
I like the image of the Haldane arms with a rose between the lion's teeth. If a Haldane prince were to marry a woman whose family arms had a rose as its principal charge, he might difference it that way. (Technically called 'compounding of arms.')
Quote from: Elkhound on June 06, 2015, 04:41:46 PM
Quote from: Evie on June 06, 2015, 01:59:29 PM
Quote from: Elkhound on June 05, 2015, 11:02:34 PM
We have the description of the Healer's Badge for Gabrielites and for lay/secular Healers, but what about religious/monastic Healers who are members of other Orders?
My guess is that anyone who started out as a Michaeline (or some other order) but who showed a talent for Healing would have been steered to the Gabrilites or Varnarites for training, since those were the experts. But I think the Healers badges are for Healers no matter what other affiliations they might have, so if someone was trained by the Gabrilites like Rhys Thuryn was, but later decided to become a Michaeline Knight rather than joining the Gabrilites or becoming a secular Healer, they'd probably wear the Michaeline badge and whichever Healer's badge was most appropriate for their status (religious or lay brother).
But other Orders need healers in their ranks. Enclosed orders need someone to run their infirmaries, and the Michaelines, as a military order, need people to take care of brothers who get wounded. It makes more sense to send them for training in the specific healing aspects to the Gabrielites than to ask the Gabrielites to send brothers on 'detached duty' as it were. Particularly for the Michelines, given the pacifist orientation of the Gabrielites.
Yes, which is why the Gabrilites train Healers even if those Healers aren't members of their Order and don't intend to be, such as Rhys, who had a Gabrilite Healer education but chose a secular life. A Michaeline Healer could learn the healing arts from the Gabrilites (or presumably from the Varnarites if he prefers that healing tradition) and still wear the Healer's Badge of a religious along with the Michaeline badge, and anyone seeing these would know he was a Michaeline and also a trained Healer. Wearing a Healer's badge doesn't necessarily mean one is a member of the Gabrilite Order unless one is also dressed as a Gabrilite.
IIRC, when KK was writing Dom Queron, she had him mention that Gabrilite priests undergo a very strenuous testing of their vocations as priests because the Gabrilites actively discouraged Healers from becoming priests; they wanted Healers mainly to marry and make more Healers. :D
So there are probably rather a lot of men like Rhys, with Gabrilite Healer training and wearing the secular Healer's badge, many more of them than there are Gabrilite Healer-priests.
As a side note, I think it's interesting that Rhys didn't come from a Healer family but had a .500 batting average at fathering Healers. :)
According to KK in the Chat last night #2 is the closest, the description is in the back of Magic.
That said, and I'm now reworking my patterns ... but what size and where on the habit, should the badges be? I saw the cross going on the front of the Capuche/Cowel and the healers badges goin on the arm.
That said, I could see the cross, and a larger one at that, on the chest of the Tunic, and both on the mantel.
If worn on the mantle, the Healer's badge is conventionally worn on the left side, IIRC. I had to look up that detail when costuming Mini-Rhys.
That makes sense, over the heart. So should a healers Badge go on the left arm as well? (I'm sorry, other than Magic and Rising all my books are packed up.)