G'day, enjoyed the books as a teenager and remember than fondly. Have a few questions though, including:
Does continental Europe exist in the deryni books (presumably overrun by Islam) or is everything between the Welsh border and the Mediterranean missing? Wiki mentions various snippets (frex a Byzantun empire is mentioned in the pre-history of Torenth) but I'm not sure whether R'kassi is meant to be sitting on the smoking remains of Cornwall or to be completely different geography. (Given that it's traditional for maps to make stuff up beyond known borders, I'd understand if Gwynedd didn't even know that the Channel existed).
Thanks in advance!
Welcome! I tend to see the Eleven Kingdoms as more of an alternate universe almost-Earth rather than as an exact parallel, so while Gwynedd can be seen as roughly analogous to medieval England (and yes, possibly with Wales added in, since that's where the name comes from after all, though I tend to think of Llannedd as perhaps being closer to Wales in that universe), I think it's more accurate to say KK was more just trying to reflect her influences from various parts of Britain/Europe rather than make exact correlations. Torenth is equally mixed, possessing elements of Germany, Russia, Hungary, and Greece in its names. Names like Fianna sound quasi-Italian to me, whereas Bremagne sometimes seems more Spanish and sometimes more French. But I think she was more trying to evoke a certain cultural feel with her naming rather than hint at exact 1:1 correspondances.
If you can remember the TV show Sliders, I tend to think of the Deryni world as more of a parallel Earth in which some aspects of history were roughly similar while other aspects diverged sharply. Even the land masses on the maps don't correspond with a map of Europe, much less Europe + Asia, so I think we can deduce it's not meant to be the exact same world as ours, just one that managed to develop quite similarly in places while veering off in interesting ways in others, especially in regards to the development of a genetically magic-potentialed human subspecies.
(And yes, I think a Sliders/Deryni crossover fanfic would have a better chance than most crossover fiction at being at least a halfway plausible story. :D )
Hi. Good to have someone else joining in the fun.
There are obviously lands beyond the parameters of the maps we have: a parallel Roman (Ruman - with circumflex) empire is referred to somewhere, and there must be some equivalent for our Holy Land/ middle East for Judaism, Christianity and Islam to exist.
Northern Western Europe seems to be missing as Torenth has something of a Russian or at any rate Slavic feel.
The eleven kingdoms feel to me like the British Isles compressed with flavours of the constituent parts - Llanedd, Wales; Kheldour, Scotland: Meara and Cassan, Ireland, but very much flavours rather than exact equivalents. One of the fun things for me is trying to imagine living in an AU Britain which isn't an island, given how much being an island impacts on so many things. It's only slightly less difficult than imagining a magical race.
I worked out a rough outline of Europe compared to Gwynedd using the maps from the back of the Deryni Codex by setting the Anvil of God (the desert region south of Bremagne and the Forcinn states) as about the level of coastal North Africa and the Eisenmarcke mountains (north-east of Torenth) as roughly corresponding to the Baltic States.
The very different layout of the landmasses does mean a one-to-one match is difficult but it does make it clear that Gwynedd and its western neighbours are pretty much the same size as western Europe. Gwynedd has more in common with a super-sized France or the Angevin Empire than it does with England or even Britain. Torenth is more like Poland-Lithuania at its greatest extent (Baltic to Black Sea).
For scale, the Duchy of Cassan is about the size of Ireland while the Kheldour penninsula (Claibourne and Rhendall) occupies all the space that would be the North Sea in Europe. The region between the Lendours and the border with Torenth is almost as large as Germany (which it largely overlaps). Mooryn (the duchies of Carthmoor and Corwin) is roughly northern Italy while Bremagne as well as the states that broke away from it (Fallon, Jaca, etc) would be a good swathe of the western Mediterranean basin). Byzantun's exactly location is unclear but it's probably somewhere around where Turkey is by comparison.
R'Kassi, as mentioned in the opening post, would occupy a region analogous in location to Naples and Greece, although the geography is immensely different, more like Egypt but in a more northerly location.
With medieval technology it would be hard to run realms this side but both Gwynedd and Torenth are largely built around immense river basins which would ease communications easily. The Eiran and its tributaries are easily as large as the Rhine and we know it's navigable for much of its length. The Beldour River is even larger.
Quote from: whitelaughter on January 23, 2016, 10:55:31 PM
(presumably overrun by Islam)
KK says somewhere (possibly in the foreward to Deryni tales) that she doesn't make much mention of any Jewish community in her books because Deryni play the part of the feared and demonised "other" played by medieval Jewry IIRC.
There doesn't seem to be any particular hostility between Islam and Christianity either; in Torenth a form of Eastern Christianity and Islam seem to co-exist and, unless I have missed it, it isn't clearly stated where the religious allegiance of a fairly major character, Azim, lies.
Quote from: drakensis on January 24, 2016, 03:06:24 AM
Gwynedd has more in common with a super-sized France or the Angevin Empire than it does with England or even Britain.
Although the weather as described is a better fit for Britain :(
Quote from: drakensis on January 24, 2016, 03:06:24 AM
With medieval technology it would be hard to run realms this side but both Gwynedd and Torenth are largely built around immense river basins which would ease communications easily. The Eiran and its tributaries are easily as large as the Rhine and we know it's navigable for much of its length. The Beldour River is even larger.
This would also explain why Deryni were in positions of power as they would not be bound by some at least of these limitations. It is not surprising that the rulers of many of the countries have at least some Deryni potential although it may be down-played as in the case of the Hort of Orsal or repressed entirely as with the Bremagni royal family in Jehana's time. It is hard to see how a country the size of Torenth could be ruled as a coherent unit for so long without Deryni power, and even at the height of the persecutions the rulers of Gwynedd still needed the aid of the Haldane potential.
I am looking at my poster map of the Eleven Kingdoms.
The distance from Rhemuth to Coroth is roughly 300 miles. The distance from Rhemuth to the coast line west, in the Connait, is 200 miles. That is 500 miles from the west coast to the Coamer Mountains that boarder on Torenth. As much as my mind wants to make the Eleven kingdoms equivalent to all of western Europe, it is much smaller than that.
I propose that we cut out bits of Europe and repast them:
England is the main Duchy of Haldane,
Welsh is turned sideways and is Howicce and Llannedd.
Ireland is slammed into the Northwest and becomes the Connait and Meara.
Cassan, Claibourne are bits of Scotland.
Cut out parts of Germany and paste it on England's east coast to become The Marches and Lendour.
The English Chanel becomes the Southern sea.
Leave France south of the Southern Sea to become Bremagne.
Tape parts of Italy and Greece east of that to become Fallon, Andelon and The Forcinn States.
Move Spain over to become R'Kassi (I see R'Kassi as the early Spanish Moors)
i will leave others to figure out Torenth.
Oh and the Norselands would be Denmark, Sweden and Norway, somehow.
If you look on the last page in the Codex you will see far east and south of R'Kassi are the lands of Rom, Agyptos, Libania, Samisreael and the Holy Lands. Those lands are represented on the map, however, by medieval terms they are beyond general knowledge and only known as stories from distant travelers.
Any fanfic writers care to tell us some traveler's stories.
Awesome, thanks everybody, much interesting information 8)
There seems nothing quite analogous to the Low Countries (Belgium & the Netherlands.)
Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:51:03 AMAlthough the weather as described is a better fit for Britain :(
Oh yes. Certainly.
Quote from: Laurna on January 24, 2016, 12:37:04 PM
I am looking at my poster map of the Eleven Kingdoms.
The distance from Rhemuth to Coroth is roughly 300 miles. The distance from Rhemuth to the coast line west, in the Connait, is 200 miles. That is 500 miles from the west coast to the Coamer Mountains that boarder on Torenth. As much as my mind wants to make the Eleven kingdoms equivalent to all of western Europe, it is much smaller than that.
I suppose that the map in the back of the codex may be Eleven Kingdoms-biased with them shown larger because more detail is known and the more distant lands taking up less room on the map because information is sparser. "Scale? What is that and why is it important?"
According to the map, Bremagne is about the size of Llanned and even adding breakaway lands it would only be around Howicce&Llannedd sized. If it's actually larger, say around the size of the Haldane Plain, that could push the Anvil of the Lord (which seems pretty clearly intended as a desert) more realistically south compared to that scale. As it is, Remigny in Bremagne appears to be closer to Rhemuth than Coroth is. If it's more like the distance from London to Madrid (785 miles) that would be a more reasonable scale, making the northern parts of the Anvil around the latitude of southern Spain.
Quote from: Laurna on January 24, 2016, 12:37:04 PMI propose that we cut out bits of Europe and repast them:
England is the main Duchy of Haldane,
Welsh is turned sideways and is Howicce and Llannedd.
Ireland is slammed into the Northwest and becomes the Connait and Meara.
Cassan, Claibourne are bits of Scotland.
Cut out parts of Germany and paste it on England's east coast to become The Marches and Lendour.
The English Chanel becomes the Southern sea.
Leave France south of the Southern Sea to become Bremagne.
Tape parts of Italy and Greece east of that to become Fallon, Andelon and The Forcinn States.
Move Spain over to become R'Kassi (I see R'Kassi as the early Spanish Moors)
i will leave others to figure out Torenth.
Oh and the Norselands would be Denmark, Sweden and Norway, somehow.
Culturally speaking that sounds about right.
I have digital versions of the poster map and the game book map. However, I am not sure I can post them here. I know Evie has them too. So let me ask, would it be copyright infringement to post one?
The biggest clue for scale is when Duncan had raced non stop changing horses multiple times to get from Rhemuth to Coroth in three days. Travel by horse is normally 20-40miles a day. The Pony Express riders could travel 75 miles a day. If Duncan did not stop to sleep, and the road was clear, he could do 100 miles in 24 hours. Coroth is 300 miles away. He was pushing the envelope, but it was possible.
I found a interesting blog post on horse travel and distance at, of all places, and cartographers blog post.
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730
Quote from: Laurna on January 26, 2016, 03:29:19 AM
I have digital versions of the poster map and the game book map. However, I am not sure I can post them here. I know Evie has them too. So let me ask, would it be copyright infringement to post one?
The biggest clue for scale is when Duncan had raced non stop changing horses multiple times to get from Rhemuth to Coroth in three days. Travel by horse is normally 20-40miles a day. The Pony Express riders could travel 75 miles a day. If Duncan did not stop to sleep, and the road was clear, he could do 100 miles in 24 hours. Coroth is 300 miles away. He was pushing the envelope, but it was possible.
I found a interesting blog post on horse travel and distance at, of all places, and cartographers blog post.
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730
As a Deryni and a healer, could Duncan feed energy to his horse enabling it to run farther/faster than a horse normally could?
I love the Cartographers Guild website, Laurna! And yes, unfortunately, I suspect posting the maps here would count as copyright infringement, since they come from published materials, not to mention those publications are still in print. (I made my scanned version for ease of checking on travel distances while writing, since I'm not always at home near those resources when I write, but they were scanned from the RPG book and poster that I purchased first, and so I figured that fell under the category of fair use for research purposes.) There is a mileage scale in the lower left corner of the most recent Kingdom maps, but be aware that the size of Gwynedd has expanded from the earliest versions (where it was narrow enough to fit on a single paperback book page) to the current version (which, iirc, is a two-page spread, or at least formatted for a much wider page). Looking through an old copy of SC last week, I was startled to find that the locations for Caerrorie and St Liam's Abbey are reversed on that map from where they appear on my poster map. I suspect some of the inconsistencies can be put down to KK changing her ideas over time, compounded with different mapmakers occasionally getting details wrong. (Plus, of course, we can say those medieval cartographers were more interested in general locations than exact accuracy. ;) ) Alaric's and Duncan's ride to Culdi after the events at St Torin's seem much more plausible on the older, narrower map than on the new one, especially given the mileage scale.
Elkhound asked:
Quote
As a Deryni and a healer, could Duncan feed energy to his horse enabling it to run farther/faster than a horse normally could?
Theoretically, that might be possible, but it sounds awfully energy-consuming to me. I suppose if he was being chased and the safety of the city or castle gate was in sight, it might be worth a shot, but for long distance travel, that sounds like a good way to completely exhaust yourself and possible leave yourself defenseless if you needed to summon up power for some other magical use later.
Quote from: Laurna on January 26, 2016, 03:29:19 AM
So let me ask, would it be copyright infringement to post one?
Wiki only uses public domain stuff, and has a map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/Eleven.kingdoms.jpeg/320px-Eleven.kingdoms.jpeg
and the distances travelled site is interesting, thanks!
Besides the Jews what is missing from this world is Vikings and the influence they had including descendants who founded Russia and eventually conquered England by way of Normandy. The geography does not provide the cauldron that brewed the Danish/Viking explorations and raids. The Deryni in a sense replace the Vikings just as they represent the persecuted jews, starting in the North some where and eventually spreading everywhere. (supposedly red hair is a marker of Viking legacy so Rhys Thuran could be part of that too).
I think KK did a good job of capturing essences of most of western history while still creating her own world.
Well, Haldane is supposedly derived from Halbert the Dane and there does appear to have been an influx of northern influxes roundabout the time the Byzantum's lost their hold on Gwynedd, Torenth and the Southern Sea region.
Erm. . . there are references to "Norseland".
Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:38:57 AM
KK says somewhere (possibly in the foreward to Deryni tales) that she doesn't make much mention of any Jewish community in her books because Deryni play the part of the feared and demonised "other" played by medieval Jewry IIRC.
Am currently reading Winston Churchill's 'History of the English Speaking Peoples' and noted that when the Jews were expelled from England, an exception was made for some Jewish physicians (p228, Vol I) - so the Deryni Healers copy that situation. Don't know whether Katherine knew that or not, but if nothing else it seems that the actual histories of the era would be worth mining for gaming and fanfic.
Quote from: whitelaughter on November 11, 2017, 04:28:45 AM
Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:38:57 AM
KK says somewhere (possibly in the foreward to Deryni tales) that she doesn't make much mention of any Jewish community in her books because Deryni play the part of the feared and demonised "other" played by medieval Jewry IIRC.
Am currently reading Winston Churchill's 'History of the English Speaking Peoples' and noted that when the Jews were expelled from England, an exception was made for some Jewish physicians (p228, Vol I) - so the Deryni Healers copy that situation. Don't know whether Katherine knew that or not, but if nothing else it seems that the actual histories of the era would be worth mining for gaming and fanfic.
I believe the mention about Judaism was in
Deryni Magic, because she says that neither Christianity nor Islam would exist without Judaism, she referenced Bishop Arilan quoting Talmudic precedent in the hearing regarding the validity of Duncan's brief marriage to Maryse, the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Dhugal's birth, and thus Dhugal's right to be Duke of Cassan.
KK said that absence of proof is not proof of absence regarding the existence of actual Jewish people in the Eleven Kingdoms and that, when the time came to tell a story in which a character being Jewish was important or at least relevant, we would see Jewish folks.
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history, I would think she did. Her master's degree is in medieval European history, IIRC, but
Lammas Night is set in the UK in 1940, so I think she has probably studied that time period to get the historical facts as correct as possible to tell
that story.
But she also does say, also in
Magic, that, in a way, the Deryni are the Jews of Gwynedd in that they are an ethnic minority who can blend in at least to a degree with the majority, and also they collectively fail to see the writing on the wall until it's too late, in reference to the persecution of Deryni after the death of Cinhil.
Incidentally, whitelaughter, if you're on a WWII history kick and you haven't read
Lammas Night, it's worth your time (or a revisit, if you
have already read it), and my mother is reading a book called
Troublesome Young Men by Lynne Olson, about the members of Parliament who forced Neville Chamberlain out of office as Prime Minister and replaced him with Churchill. Mom says it's fascinating, and I trust her tastes. ;D
There are Jews in a story in Deryni Tales.
Quote from: Bynw on November 11, 2017, 08:04:43 AM
There are Jews in a story in Deryni Tales.
I think I have a copy of
Deryni Tales, but I haven't read the whole thing yet. Do you happen to remember whether the story featuring Jewish characters written by KK or by a fan?
Although, either way,
Deryni Magic was published eleven years before
Deryni Tales. ;)
It was a fan story. Unfortunately I am at work and all my paper back books are in storage so I wont be able to check who wrote it. But it is a good story I do remember reading it. Most of the stories in Deryni Tales are by fans. They are some of KK's favorites from past issues of Deryni Archives the 'zine.
Quote from: Bynw on November 11, 2017, 09:55:30 AM
It was a fan story. Unfortunately I am at work and all my paper back books are in storage so I wont be able to check who wrote it. But it is a good story I do remember reading it. Most of the stories in Deryni Tales are by fans. They are some of KK's favorites from past issues of Deryni Archives the 'zine.
Yeah, I knew
Deryni Tales was mostly fan stories, I think with a short story or two from Our Lady of the Stories. ;) I was just curious, and I don't have access to any of my physical books right now either, just the ones on my Kindle app, and
Deryni Tales isn't one of the ones I have in Kindle format.
Arilan the Talmud Student was written by Daniel Kohanski and Jay Barry Azneer
Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.
Quote from: whitelaughter on November 14, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought it had to do with Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany. Mea culpa.
Quote from: DesertRose on November 14, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: whitelaughter on November 14, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on November 11, 2017, 05:15:53 AM
As to whether KK knew about that part of WWII-era history,
Oh sorry, it's not WWII - this is when Churchill is talking about the expulsion in the middle ages.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought it had to do with Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany. Mea culpa.
Perfectly understandable, given the Jewish doctor who treated Hitler's mother and so forth! I guess the lesson is that the more things change, the more they stay the same...
Ain't that the truth. :/
Quote from: Elkhound on January 25, 2016, 09:11:34 AM
There seems nothing quite analogous to the Low Countries (Belgium & the Netherlands.)
This thread is fascinating. some random thoughts
The Frisians inhabited the low countries but disappeared from history much like the early Deryni, and
possibly were persecuted by catholics mainly the Franks, and forcibly integrated or killed off.
I also think there is a parallel between the spread of the Vikings and their red hair and the spread of the
Deryni gene from possibly a small group in the North (Denmark-Norway-Sweden).
I always associated R'Kassan horses with Arabians which would put AU Saudi Arabia somewhere here but
that doesn't fit well with map overlays being discussed.
Quote from: tenworld on November 19, 2017, 02:24:54 PM
I always associated R'Kassan horses with Arabians which would put AU Saudi Arabia somewhere here but
that doesn't fit well with map overlays being discussed.
It needn't be Saudi Arabia, just anywhere in the Arab world. Morocco/North Africa is just across a very narrow channel of water from Spain, and for that matter there was a lot of Moorish (Islamic) influence in Southern Spain during the Middle Ages, so R'kassi could be analogous to either of those, although I tend to think of Andalon as being more the Spanish counterpart, so maybe R'kassi is more similar to North Africa?
Quote from: Evie on November 19, 2017, 07:27:21 PM
Quote from: tenworld on November 19, 2017, 02:24:54 PM
I always associated R'Kassan horses with Arabians which would put AU Saudi Arabia somewhere here but
that doesn't fit well with map overlays being discussed.
It needn't be Saudi Arabia, just anywhere in the Arab world. Morocco/North Africa is just across a very narrow channel of water from Spain, and for that matter there was a lot of Moorish (Islamic) influence in Southern Spain during the Middle Ages, so R'kassi could be analogous to either of those, although I tend to think of Andalon as being more the Spanish counterpart, so maybe R'kassi is more similar to North Africa?
Andelon does bear an orthographic resemblance to Andalusia. ;)
And the Moors held the southern part of the Iberian peninsula (modern-day Spain and Portugal) for several centuries. There are a number of loanwords from Arabic in modern Spanish (and I'd guess also in Portuguese but I've never studied that language).
I always thought of the Forcinn States as being a sort of cultural/ethnic crossroads. All those principalities seem to be in good locations for trade, which tends to bring people of various cultures together.
Question inspired by the map posted by DesertRose:
The Anvil of the Lord is (presumably) desert a la the real world Empty Quarter in Arabia, but what about going north? Is the climate north of Gwynedd more like northumberland or spitzbergen?
thanks again!
Quote from: whitelaughter on December 31, 2017, 10:51:27 PM
Question inspired by the map posted by DesertRose:
The Anvil of the Lord is (presumably) desert a la the real world Empty Quarter in Arabia, but what about going north? Is the climate north of Gwynedd more like northumberland or spitzbergen?
thanks again!
I've assumed that immediately north of Gwynedd is equivalent to the north of Scotland/ southern Scandanavia i.e. cold but not arctic.
I do love thinking about what's off the basic Eleven Kingdoms map, especially what's east and south. I do keep telling myself that trying to put an overlay of Europe and North Africa onto the Eleven Kingdoms is a problem, and that I shouldn't be going "Aha! Autun = SW France and NW Spain" or whatever. Hard not to think of Torenth as Muscovy, though.
I believe it was MerchantDeryni who wrote a fun story about Deryni traders using portals to bring in trade goods from the East. He had fun with the eastern markets. In Evie's modern time story, there was the New World and even an Australian like Island Country. It is a bigger word than just the Eleven Kingdoms. It just needs exploring. If you so chose, become our explorer.
Hmmm... I just may!
And I did like Evie's "Balance of Power" a lot.
There seems to be a scandinavia equivalent in the mountainous country north-east of Tolan and Torenth. There's mention in the codex of a considerable war fought in the early 11th century by Torenth.
The map in the Codex indicates that the Northern Sea to the east of Kheldour is fairly enclosed, with a substantial mountain range at the eastern edge of it. The lands north and east of these mountains are marked as Norselands and more specifically as Eistenmarcke, with a city named Eistenfala marked.
Eistenmarcke has no reference in the codex but Eistenfala is listed, as the capital of Eistenmark, presumably the same place, "inhabited by the barbarian tribes who still follow a god called the All-Father". (The swordsmith Ferris who we see in one of the short stories is from this region). Apparently Eistenmarcke elects their kings at an assembly called the Thinge.
This suggests that the Northern Sea is more or less analagous to the North Sea, with Kheldour as more or less Scotland on the western edge and Eistenmark as more or less Sweden/Denmark on the east and north.
I believe the Original Deryni came an island named Caeriesse which sank into the sea around the year 525. The location of Caeriesse is unknown, but colonies of Deryni first inhabited the coast lines of Kheldour and the coastlines of Torenthaly as early as a full millennia before Kelson's time. If the Caeriessian's were such early sea faring folk I have no doubt that they would have moved also into the Norselands in those early centuries.
We have had a few fan fic authors writing stories about Deryni Families on several different islands off the North sea and around the Norselands.
I'll have to take a look at some of those. I think I'm especially attracted to the east and south--- to cultures where Deryni are part of societies that aren't medieval western Europe... And I always love borderlands, places where cultures meet.
Just a thought re something I noted above--- wouldn't there be something of the Low Countries/the Rhineland in the Orsal country?
I suppose I'd always thought of Bremagne as like NW and N Central France but thought of the Forcinn states, Fianna, and Fallon as a kind of displaced set of Mediterranean states or princedoms.
I agree that the Eleven Kingdoms can't be simply mapped onto Europe as much as Gwynedd has similarities to Britain. I guess I've always seen them as an alternate world with its own rules.
It has peoples somewhat similar to the celts, germans and so forth, but the lands are clearly different, shaping their history quite differently.
I always love going back over this thread since I'm a major cartography devotee--- maps are always things I pore over.
Quote from: revanne on January 24, 2016, 07:51:03 AM
Quote from: drakensis on January 24, 2016, 03:06:24 AM
Gwynedd has more in common with a super-sized France or the Angevin Empire than it does with England or even Britain.
Although the weather as described is a better fit for Britain :(
Quote from: drakensis on January 24, 2016, 03:06:24 AM
With medieval technology it would be hard to run realms this side but both Gwynedd and Torenth are largely built around immense river basins which would ease communications easily. The Eiran and its tributaries are easily as large as the Rhine and we know it's navigable for much of its length. The Beldour River is even larger.
This would also explain why Deryni were in positions of power as they would not be bound by some at least of these limitations. It is not surprising that the rulers of many of the countries have at least some Deryni potential although it may be down-played as in the case of the Hort of Orsal or repressed entirely as with the Bremagni royal family in Jehana's time. It is hard to see how a country the size of Torenth could be ruled as a coherent unit for so long without Deryni power, and even at the height of the persecutions the rulers of Gwynedd still needed the aid of the Haldane potential.
I wonder if the Moorish religion in the 11 Kingdoms is Islam as we know it or something closer to the way the Byzantines seem to have thought of Islam when they first heard of it-- as a kind of Judaism. I also wonder whether R'Kassi is Christian or not.
Quote from: Evie on November 19, 2017, 07:27:21 PM
Quote from: tenworld on November 19, 2017, 02:24:54 PM
I always associated R'Kassan horses with Arabians which would put AU Saudi Arabia somewhere here but
that doesn't fit well with map overlays being discussed.
It needn't be Saudi Arabia, just anywhere in the Arab world. Morocco/North Africa is just across a very narrow channel of water from Spain, and for that matter there was a lot of Moorish (Islamic) influence in Southern Spain during the Middle Ages, so R'kassi could be analogous to either of those, although I tend to think of Andalon as being more the Spanish counterpart, so maybe R'kassi is more similar to North Africa?
I always got the impression that R'Kassi was close to Visigothic Spain-- that the R'Kassans were vaguely Germanic or Gothic, transplanted to a desert-like region (maybe like the Spanish grasslands?)...but didn't the Codex hint that they shared the Moors' religion?
Quote from: Laurna on November 08, 2020, 06:07:37 AMWe have had a few fan fic authors writing stories about Deryni Families on several different islands off the North sea and around the Norselands.
I know this has been "Long Ago", but any chance of you giving specifics about where to find these? I would love to read them.
Cronanbor
One set of stories that I was thinking of was by Aerlys. I got to enjoy reading several chapters, however I don't believe she ever finished it enough to post her story here. Periodically, she says hello in chat. It was an adventurous story about a Deryni village in the Norselands.
The other stories I was thinking of would be Jerusha's tales about the Cameron family on Isles, which is an island north of Claibourne. Scattered details emerged about the Barony Isles in the Game/Story Ghosts of the Past. Jerusha has ideas about expanding the family's story line. Some day.
My island kingdom of Llyr that pops up in some of my fanfic story arc is a non-canonical kingdom that is somewhere to the West or Southwest of Gwynedd. In my personal head canon, Llyr was primarily settled by a group of survivors of whatever catastrophe befell ancient Caeriesse. They were some of the fortunate few who either were outside of that kingdom when it was destroyed (possibly having sailed away to trade with other lands and then returned to find their home destroyed), along with some who heeded the early warning signs and left Caeriesse before it sank into the sea. (I always assumed what happened was along the lines of a volcanic eruption like the one that destroyed Santorini.)
My impression of the Forcinn states and their immediate neighbors, particularly given their geographical proximity to R'Kassi, is that they are analogous to the Christian kingdoms and principalities in the northern Iberian peninsula who represented the survivors of the Visigothic kingdom who were pushed into the northern reaches of the peninsula by the Muslim Moorish invaders, represented broadly by the R'Kassans to the east of the Forcinn. But rather than Iberian or Spanish or even Catalan, the names in the princely and ducal lists found in the Codex suggest southern France (the Languedoc or Gascony or southern Aquitaine). The names of at least four of the principalities—Logréine, Vezaire, Joux, and Thurie (Thuria)— suggest this Gascon/Aquitainian/Languedoc parallel.
The Andell Mountains are also not a little suggestive of the Pyrenees, with Andelon's being of a sort with Pyrenean lands like Roussillon, the northern reaches of the principality of Catalunya, and Andorra (which, if you squint just right, has a bit of orthographic similarity to Andelon/Andell). And as DesertRose noted over six years ago in this thread, Andelon also (and more strongly) bears an orthographic resemblance to Andalusia, and that principality, along with the emirate of Nur Hallaj, provides a tantalizing suggestion of what a Christianized Moorish principality in Iberia might have been like.
Thuria, also referred called by the more French form "Thurie" in the Codex, appears to have a German flavor, given the name of its chief city or town, viz. Kranburg. In terms of real world geography, this makes that part of the Forcinn sort of like that lower eastern border between France and Germany (or Alsace-Lorraine), where German place names are found in France and where French family names are found in Germany.
The northern extreme of the Forcinn, represented by Orsalis and Tralia, seem more suggestive of the eastern Adriatic coast, viz. Dalmatia or Istria. Of course, the Ile d'Orsal suggests more the French flavor of the middle and southern coastal Forcinn states. But the family name of the Orsalian princely family (d'Horthy) duplicates the family name of Miklós Horthy, the Hungarian admiral (in the Austro-Hungarian navy) who ruled the kingless Kingdom of Hungary as Regent from shortly after the First World War until the end of the Second World War. It's also worth noting that there are late medieval connections between France and Hungary, not least in the form of the Angevin kings of Hungary, so the name "Ile d'Orsal" and the French names of the Horts of Orsal still fit that vaguely Magyar/Dalmatian feel that I perceive in the northern Forcinn.
This makes sense, given the proximity of Orsalis and Tralia (and Thuria) to Torenth, with its Slavic/German/Magyar-flavored names and culture.
I've also imagined that the coast of the Forcinn more nearly resembles the eastern Adriatic coast, with the Ile d'Orsal suggesting the beauty of Dubrovnik. The trade prowess of Orsal is also suggestive of the great merchant city-states of the Adriatic sea on both coasts, such as Venice, Ragusa (Dubrovnik), and Ancona. Perhaps that eastern Adriatic flavor extends into the southern inland Forcinn as well, given that the original princely family in Andelon were the Vastouni, which is a Greek name found not only in mainland Greece but in the island of Corfu. (So does that dynasty then have an Ottoman Turkish feel, with Arabic given names and a Greek surname?)
Finally, there being no Circassia on the maps, though there is a reference in at least one of the books (if memory serve) to "Circassian lancers" in the Torenthi royal guard, does the name R'Kassi represent a sort of contracted form of Circassia (Circassia—>Circassi—>R'Kassi)? Of course, the ethnic identity of the real world Circassians isn't Moorish, but that doesn't mean the name couldn't be redolent.
As I think about it more, a similarity of the Forcinn and the eastern Adriatic cost fits the idea of a Christian/Muslim interface in much the same way that the Christian and Moorish kingdoms of northern Iberia do, given the invasion of the Balkans by the Ottoman Turks.
This is along the lines of what I've been thinking as well, at least as far as the Forcinn States, R'Kassi, and Andelon are concerned, since the lands between Bremagne and Fianna appear to have all originally been part of Grand Bremagne, IIRC their respective histories from the Codex. In my 1464 Eleven Kingdoms story in progress, I am modeling Andelon loosely on Andalusia, so it's heartening to see someone else drawing the same parallels. I had thought (based on the Codex description of the landscape, I think?) that the coastal area of Tralia might be more similar in some ways to Flanders, but your concept of it also works.
By the Forcinn States, the Codex seems to be referring to all the states starting from the Bhutti River and going northeast of there up to Tralia. To the Southwest of the Bhutti, you have Bremagne, Fallon, Fianna, Autun, and Jaca, which seem to have a different sort of culture or set of cultures.
I think that the cultural influence of "Grande Bremagne" is still seen in the toponyms and the regnal names of the Forcinn states, though the cultures in Thuria/Thurie, Tralia and Orsal, Nur Hallaj (and Andelon, if one counts that as part of the Forcinn) have evolved through closer proximity to Torenth and Lorsöl on the one hand and to R'Kassi on the other.
This raises regionally a question that I've long wondered about, and that I suspect has previously been addressed in these fora, viz. what languages are spoken in the Eleven Kingdoms and environs?
Concerning the region under discussion, is Bremagni the language not only of Bremagne proper, Fallon, Fianna, and Jaca but also of the Forcinn states, perhaps with regional and local dialects and influence by the R'Kassan (Moorish?) and southern Torenthi languages and regional dialects in the northern and western Forcinn?
Some time ago, someone (perhaps it was you?) wrote that Fianna had a sort of Italian feel to them—though I think its more reminiscent of Provence than Italy (though the name itself conjures the warbands of early medieval Ireland—what if the name derives from bands of Connaiti warriors who settled that part of the kingdom of Bremagne early in its history?). Could it be that if Fianna be Provençal in flavor, the folk in the coastal Forcinn states with French names speak something more like a Fiannan (Fiannese?) dialect of Bremagni, or a Fiannan language that is a distinct but closely related language to Bremagni? Against that idea is the fact that the names in all the regnal lists in the Codex are French, not Occitan.
Of course, the names in the regnal list of Bremagne itself have some Breton and not strictly French flavor—unsurprisingly, I would say.
(Which raises the question: why the demonym "Bremagni" and not "Bremon" on analogy with "Bretagne" and "Breton" in the real world? Admittedly, Bremagni rolls better off the tongue.)
Yes, these are the flights of fancy that I spent part of my free time engaged in. But I feel as though there are kindred spirits here!
The Codex is iffy about Andelon being part of the Forcinn States. For the most part it treats it as being separate, though it acknowledges in at least one entry that some people consider Andelon as being part of the Forcinn. If it is, I think it might differ from the other Forcinn States in not being under the Hort of Orsal's suzerainty.
In my story-in-progress, I have Spanish and Arabic as being spoken the languages in Andalon, since I am (extremely loosely) basing it on Andalusia, and I have French spoken in Fianna. (Since my story is set in 1464, I also have Fianna and Fallon more or less united into one kingdom now since the marriage of a Fallonese heiress to the Fiannan heir a few generations back.) I used to think of Fianna as being more Italianate, but that was before I went through their list of rulers in the Codex and saw that they have more French sounding names, so I think your guess of Provence is likely more accurate. It could simply be that the names in the regnal lists are in French rather than Occitan because our writers of the Codex didn't happen to be as familiar with Occitan.
Evie, you noted that you're writing a Deryni story set in 1464. I'm curious re: the level of technology, culture, etc. Will that level in your story be roughly that of mid-15th century real world Europe, or will it be later than that (15th or even early 16th century real world)?
I can now recall neither when nor where I read it, nor who wrote it, but I recall reading speculation that regarding Anno Domini, the technology of KK's world of Camber and Kelson was a century or perhaps two ahead of our world. That is, the technology (in cathedral construction, for example) of the early 12th century in the Eleven Kingdoms was more like that of the early 13th century (or later) in the real world.
Wondering about this some time ago, I consulted the regnal list of the Kaisares-Autokratores in Byzantyun, wondering whether when that empire had embraced Christianity might give some hint. The Codex (nor, I think KK) never says when that occurred. The Codex entry notes that Gwynedd, Bremagne, and Fallon were all evangelized by missionaries from Rûm—hence the use of Latin in the "Western" Church in the Eleven Kingdoms and surrounding lands—but no date is given. In any event, that wouldn't be dispositive, because in our world Christian missionaries had reached the limits of the Roman Empire and beyond by the end of the second century, and the empire wouldn't legalize Christianity for another two hundred years, and it wouldn't become the "state religion" for another seventy years after that.
The regnal list of emperors of Byzantyun includes no Constantine the Great nor any clearly analogous figure, but the name of an early third century kaisar suggests that he may have been the first Christian emperor: Ióannes I (r. 218-223). The names of all of the preceding kaisares are found in pre-Christian Latin and Greek (the Latin names are obviously Grecianized in the list), but Ióannes is a Greek name derived from Hebrew, Yohannan (John).
Was Ióannes I the first Christian kaisar and autokrator of Byzantyun? If so, that means that in KK's world, the Christianization of empire (more specifically, imperial government) began at least a century earlier than in our own world. That might have sped up the further development of technology.
I'm not taking a position one way or the other regarding the technological level of KK's medieval period—just interested in what you're doing with it.
Right now, since I still want to preserve a mostly late medieval feel to the world (mainly because I don't feel comfortable venturing past the equivalent of Elizabethan tech or culture since I'm much less knowledgeable about any of the periods beyond that and want to spend more time writing than researching more than I'm already needing to do), it is mostly consistent with our world's 15th Century, but with some wiggle room just as KK has in her canonical Eleven Kingdoms. I have handgonnes in a scene, but don't want to venture any further than that into the gunpowder age, for example, because then I'd have to take into account heavy cannons and adding heavier fortifications, and that moves further from the aesthetic that I am more familiar with and love. So I'm writing in a time that is verging on discovering all that, for better or for worse, and that has just recently begun to use the printing press, but that hasn't fully caught on everywhere yet. A world that has a slightly more Renaissance feel than Kelson's world, but without becoming too unfamiliar, and where maybe innovation in tech advancement has slowed down just a tad because with the rise of Deryni scholae and greater acceptance of and coexistence with Deryni, innovation in magical applications might have become more of a thing instead.
BUT it's not even fully consistent with a late medieval aesthetic, since I've also thrown in Vikings (Eistenmarckers), so there's that.... ;D
Yes-- this is how I've been seeing R'Kassi and some of the eastern Forcinn in my fanfic pieces: a liminal zone between Christendom and whatever variant of Islam the novels present, with some religious and linguistic syncretism.