I subscribed to CoaMaker today so that I could play around with some of the heraldry mentioned in the Codex. My favorite creation thus far is the coat of arms (at least the shield) of the Principality of Orsal and Tralia: sea green, a morse rampant argent.
I might post a few others in coming days.
Do post more. I always love a good crest or banner!
The shield is the coat of arms. All the fru-fru added together with it is an achievement of arms.
Does that program place and size things itself, or do you do it, or what?
Sizing and placement are controlled by the user, though there are some program helps.
The Codex describes or partially describes only a few coats of arms. I've attempted to reproduce some of these as possible (Haldane, Duchy of Corwyn, Orsal and Tralia, a few others). In other cases, I've drawn on the history of the domain or its culture or its legendarium, as is typically the case with real world heraldry.
The following include my first attempts at:
1) the Duchy of Corwyn (sable, a gryphon segreant vert within a double tressure flory-counter-flory or);
2) the Duchy of Alver (described only as featuring "a green frog rampant");
3) the Principality of Autun.
A few more:
1) the Kingdom of Bremagne;
2) the Kingdom of Fallon;
3) the Sovereign County of Fianna.
The similarities of these three are owing to their common history.
And a few more:
1) the Principality of Jáca;
2) the Principality of Andelon;
3) the Sovereign Principality and Emirate of Nur Hallaj.
Evie will notice that I'm supporting her association of Andelon with Andalusia. I also make a slight nod in the direction of the arms of the Principality of Andorra, because Andelon has a sort of Pyrenean feel as well.
And finally (for now), the Grand Duchy of Jandrich. You can see what I took to be hints at possible heraldry from the Codex entry for the duchy. The bear is a bit of northern lagniappe.
An alternative CoA for the Kingdom of Fallon, restoring the fleur-de-lis on the bend instead of crosses bottony.
Two alternative CoA for Nur Hallaj. Alternate 1 is actually the original form that I created; alternate 2 makes clear that the emirs of Nur Hallaj are Christian. Perhaps the first form that I posted is the original under the first three emirs, and when Hafiz (Jabez) converted, he altered the arms by substituting crosses fleury for the crescents.
wow
@Frère de Saint-Gabriel these are fantastic!
These are great! What are the blazons for these?
Sister, I'm the merest amateur when it comes to heraldry. I know only enough to follow basic rules and have only enough vocabulary and knowledge of the conventions to describe the simplest blazons.
I'll give the ones that (I think) I know. Those with an asterisk indicate blazons in the Codex. Sometimes a description is given (Orsal and Tralia, Alver) without its being a true blazon.
Orsal and Tralia: sea green, a morse rampant argent
*Corwyn: sable, a gryphon segreant vert within a double tressure flory-counter-flory or
Alver: or, a frog rampant vert (CD only generally describes)
Below are two more CoA that I've created, one from a blazon given in the Codex and the other generally described:
*Duchy/House of Haldane: gules, a lion [or leopard] rampant gardant or
Principality of Meara: azure bend argent, a dancing bear sable and estoilles gules (CD only generally describes, and I've taken creative liberties)
I leave it to other folks with far more knowledge of and experience with heraldry to give blazons to the coats of arms that I've created whole cloth.
What is that main charge in the Andelonian arms? Is that a pomegranate?
Good eye! Yes, it's a pomegranate, chosen because it is the charge on the arms of the kingdom of Granada. It also forms the base of the CoA of the kingdom of Spain, whose CoA includes as quarters and the base all the kingdoms that merged into the Crown of Spain (Leon, Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and Granada—Galicia's chalice gets left out, alas).
I've always liked the pomegranate charge, so I thought I'd narrow Andalusia down to Granada, the last Muslim kingdom in Western Europe. (Though Andelon is Christian.) I like to think that pomegranates grow in the principality.
Because there is something Pyrenean about Andelon (and Jaca) as well, I added the bull gules at the base of the shield as a nod to the arms of the RW principality of Andorra.
The main charge's description in the blazon would be (I think): a pomegranate proper seeded gules, supported, sculpted and leafed in six leaves vert.
Given the description of the principality in the Codex, a far more fanciful CoA could probably be created!
Asking for help from the creative folks of the Castle:
I'm continuing my project of creating coats of arms for the various polities, principalities, and peoples of the Eleven Kingdoms and environs, and I've reached a creative block with Carthmoor. The duchy was of course carved from the old kingdom of Mooryn when that kingdom was absorbed into Gwynedd, and the other duchy so created was Corwyn.
I was thinking that the CoA of Carthmoor might mirror that of Corwyn (reposted below), but I thought that I would start with a shield sable (like Corwyn), but make the double tressure flory-counter-flory argent instead of or (see below, Carthmoor WIP).
My block is that I don't know with what to charge the shield: a gryphon, like Corwyn, but perhaps a different color? (I disinclined toward this one.) A different animal or other charge? If so, what color? Vert, like the Corwyn gryphon? Is there something in the history of the dukes of Carthmoor that suggests a charge? Perhaps the Haldane lion, given that the duchy is usually in the possession of a cadet branch of the House of Haldane? (see below, Carthmoor-Haldane lion). If so, should the lion be vert? or (as below)? some other tincture (color, metal, or stain)?
I would go with blue in there somewhere, if not as the field color, then as the main charge color. Nigel was often depicted as wearing sapphire blue instead of Haldane crimson, so it seems reasonable to infer that he is dressed in his Carthmoor colors in those scenes. (Also, I think he is described as having a lion in his change, so maybe that would also be in the Carthmoor arms, especially if it is a royal duchy.)
These are magnificent!
Thanks, Marc du Temple!
Evie, good points about Nigel. What about this, with Corwyn again, for comparison.
And for good measure, the Duchy and House of Haldane as crimson rather than red.
The rest of the Forcinn states, starting with the Duchy of Joux. All of these (Joux, Vézaire, Logréine, and Thuria/Thurie) include a St. George's Cross design, since the latter three derived in one way or another from Joux.
Charges and eschutcheons are drawn from the descriptions of the produce and the culture of each Forcinn principality in the Codex. Have fun figuring them out!
Logréine, Thuria (Thurie), and Vézaire—
Can you tell that I'm having fun at this?!!
1464 Joux is hoping to reassimilate its neighbors, so that works. ;) And I like the Carthmoor arms with that blue field.
These are wonderful.
Thanks to you all for your kind words!
These are the work of an amateur who loves heraldry but whose knowledge is far, far from encyclopedic. Those of you who know more, please correct me when I've made mistakes—it's one of the best ways to learn.
And anyone who likes them and finds any value in them may use them in any way you may wish. Refer to them in your stories, use them in your Deryni RPG game, etc. I have no proprietary interest in them. I'm just having fun.
Evie, not to make the assimilation of their former territories by the Dukes of Joux more difficult, but...
I think it possible that Logréine, given that it wrested its independence from Joux; and that Thuria (Thurie) existed as a sovereign county before Joux assimilated them (and then gave them independence again as the domain of a distaff cadet branch of the ducal family) might have coats of arms that more reflect their independence of Joux.
So I offer these as alternatives for those principalities. Perhaps the St. George Cross forms would become the CoAs of those realms as dependent fiefdoms of a united (Grand?) Duchy of Joux.
To reflect the Thuria's direct origin from Tralia, the green (vert) of their CoA is the same sea green of the CoA of Orsal and Tralia.
Those look nice too. I especially like the Thurian one.
Feel free to thwart the ambitions of Joux. My Gwyneddans certainly hope to. ;D
New alternative CoA for Thuria, with the bull and the goat statant rather than rampant. Doing my part to thwart the designs of Joux.
Long live the several Forcinn states!
Also arms for the Knights of the Anvil—with Michaeline echoes....
I love the Anviller ones! I'm a sucker for a simple but elegant design.
You should join us in tomorrow evening's chat! KK's late husband used to work as a real modern-world herald when they lived in Ireland, IIRC. I'm sure she would love to see these.
What gorgeous work,
@Frère de Saint-Gabriel! I'm going to second Evie's love of the Anviller device in particular.
Historically, a heraldic device was intended to make it easy to find specific people, so you tend to see much simpler ones farther back in history. Later on, it got to be more of a bragging rights thing and you get into some extremely complex designs that are all but illegible unless you're quite close, which isn't much use on a battlefield or a banner above a keep, LOL.
I also would like to join Evie in inviting you to join us in IRC chat (there are links on the main page of the forum) or Discord (also linked, and there is a bridge between the IRC and Discord chats). KK tends to come visit with us most Sundays around 7 pm US Eastern time.
Evie, what time is the chat?
I remember reading in KK's Wikipedia page that her husband served as a herald in the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland when they lived there.
If I'm not able to join, feel free to direct KK or her husband to the CoAs.
And thanks—I rather like the Advil arms myself!
Most Sundays,the chat is at 7:00 PM US Eastern time (whatever that is in your time zone), and you can either join using the link in the chat section of our forum (for the IRC version of chat), or if you use Discord, you can join our Discord server and participate that way. In addition to the Sunday chats that KK participates in, you can nearly always find someone on Discord at any given time in one of our chat channels. (You can also log in using the IRC link, but the advantage of Discord is that you can see conversation that has been going on before you arrived and leave any comments or questions that others will see if they log in at a later time. In IRC, you only see the chat that is ongoing at the time you are logged in.)
On the first Sunday of most months, unless KK has a schedule conflict, we normally have a Zoom chat instead of the regular text chat. The Zoom chats are earlier (I think 3:00 PM Eastern) so our friends in the UK can participate. The Zoom link is normally sent out by forum private message a day or two ahead of time, so you can check your inbox for it.
DesertRose, you've picked up on something that I'm trying to convey: the more minor the state, the more complex the CoA, because they're trying to establish bragging rights in place of political and economic power. Compare, for example, the arms of the Hort of Orsal with those of Logréine or any of the other small Forcinn states. That weirdly delightful "frog rampant or" of Alver is an exception, however!
I'm having to restrain myself from creating even more complex arms!
The difficulty of distinguishing them in the field or on the parapets is among the reasons that I created the alternate forms for Logréine and Thuria. However, it's likely that their battle banners are probably going to be simpler than their coats of arms.
But I'm also trying to convey something of the culture and the history of the various realms in their arms, though that's something we see more in later centuries in the coats of arms of municipal and regional polities than in those of the high medieval period.
For example, see the arms that I've created for the Principality and Earldom of Kheldour, below. (There probably need to be some differences between the arms of the earlier, later extinct, principality and the earldom of the 12th century, though).
The longship recalls the arrival of the Kheldourynoi from the West, recorded in the Byzantyun annals of the early Christian era. (I've added a bit of legend to this in my "head canon," making them the vanquishers of a kingdom of northern Giants who dwelt in the land that came to be called Kheldour, on analogy with the mythology that grew up around Brutus and the Trojans who invaded Britain in the heroic age and defeated the giants in what would later become Scotland. Nothing in the arms about this, though.)
The weaving shuttle recalls the importance of the fine textiles and carpets that have been made in Kheldour for centuries. The thistles? Well, just because Kheldour clearly has a Scottish feel, though perhaps more the Brythonic than the Pictish or Gaelic part of Scotland, given that the names of the princes of the House of MacTyre (Gaelic) are Brythonic/Cymric/Welsh—though come to think of it, that admixture of cultures makes old Kheldour even more like Scotland!
And the thistles just look neat.
As I look at this coat of arms, I think it possible that the upper third of the shield (the chief) probably represents the arms of the old principality of Kheldour, while the lower part of the shield might be the addition made when the earldom was created by Uthyr Haldane in 966.
Good grief. Now I'm even making up history for these CoAs!
But I suspect I'm in very sympathetic company here.
Thanks, Evie. I'll try to be online if I've packed up enough of my library for the workers to get in here and build more bookshelves.
And I'll certainly keep the time in mind.
I like your Kheldour CoA, it looks like a little face. :)
Quote from: Frère de Saint-Gabriel on June 08, 2024, 07:00:08 PMI rather like the Advil arms myself!
I dunno, I think they're kind of a headache.
Quote from: tmcd on June 08, 2024, 09:18:06 PMQuote from: Frère de Saint-Gabriel on June 08, 2024, 07:00:08 PMI rather like the Advil arms myself!
I dunno, I think they're kind of a headache.
What about the Tylenol or Motrin arms?
The King's Deryni, ch. 42, p. 459 in my edition (the Ace first-edition hardback). Why some or all of it is in a site called "bookreadfree.com", and labeled page 53 there, I don't know. I'm glad that I have the NoScript browser extension installed, in case there's nasty JavaScript.
Anyway, this is a bit of the scene of Nigel's knighting.
QuoteAt the head of the hall, the duty herald stepped to the front of the dais and rapped with his staff against the oak boards. The banner-bearer moved into position at Alaric's right and shook out the scarlet silk to reveal Nigel's crowned golden demi-lion. Richard and Nigel fell in behind them.
"Sire, His Royal Highness the Prince Richard Haldane Duke of Carthmoor begs leave to approach the throne with business to present before Your Majesties."
P. 463,
QuoteShe [Meraude] was almost of a height with Nigel, who had changed from his knighting attire to a short tunic of royal-blue velvet worked around the hem with a border of running lions.
So regardless of Nigel's preferences in clothing, his arms apparently had the same red field as the Haldane arms.
Now, it might be that Carthmoor had its own arms of dominion. Prince Richard was its duke at this point. I presume that the peerage remainder didn't allow passing it to women, so on his death, the succession failed and it merged back into the crown, and the duchy was created anew to be given to Nigel. But in England, at least, there weren't ducal arms of dominion that I know of. For example, the arms of England's duke of Norfolk are simply the his ordinary inherited arms. So for Nigel as duke of Carthmoor, in my opinion the best would be just "Gules, a demi-lion erect crowned Or".
While I'm here:
Chapter 46, p. 503, shows them raising swords against the Marluk ... hmm, that's pretty catchy ... anyway.
QuoteThe device on the banner gave little doubt regarding his [Hogan Gwernach's] pretension. Along with the ducal arms of Tolan --- the ermine field with a red lion's jambe clutching a coronet --- he had quartered royal Gwynedd.
Which is interesting, because I had had the impression that the gold lion were the Haldane arms, not arms of dominion of Gwynedd.
If I may make style suggestions?
In the SCA, at least, it's suggested that charges be drawn "big, bold, and butch", filling the space available. Well, not so full as to touch the adjacent edges, but more filling (great taste).
Also, in our world's European armory, charges on a bend usually follow the line of the bend, hence slanted bendwise.
It does, Nezz! I hadn't noticed that until you pointed it out. And thanks—I rather like that CoA as well, because it looks good, and it tells us a lot about Kheldour.
tmcd, I am currently making changes as you've suggested. Because the program that I'm using doesn't allow me to rotate charges (or I simply haven't yet figured it out or haven't yet figured out a workaround), I am changing all bends to fesses.
Interesting textual work on Nigel's Haldane arms. Given that I've assumed the double tressure flory-counter-flory to be a characteristic of the armorial of the duchies formed out of old Mooryn, I've included the arms whose blazon you described with the tressure to signify not only Nigel's personal arms but also that these are the arms of Carthmoor (at least, as long as Nigel and his heirs of the blood are the dukes). Let me know what you think.
I'll be posting all of the newly amended CoAs that have taken into account your suggestions over the next couple of days.
Thanks again for the corrections and suggestions.
A demi-lion is the top half of a lion. See, for example, https://mistholme.com/dictionary/demi-beast/ (Ignore the blazons below: they're SCA only.)
Thanks again for the correction. I did a bit of searching and honestly came up with nothing that told me whether it meant literally only half of the lion (as the word suggests) or referred to the attitude of the foreparts versus the attitude of the hindparts.
In any event, here is the (again corrected) CoA. Third (or fourth or fifth) time's a charm, eh?
One thing to note: I am limited by what is available in my program. This is the only form of the demi-lion that I have. Admittedly, I could look at other sites for downloadable files as well.
You make note of the SCA rather than only heraldic colleges in a couple of comments. Are you an SCA herald?
Quote from: Frère de Saint-Gabriel on June 08, 2024, 07:23:06 PMAs I look at this coat of arms, I think it possible that the upper third of the shield (the chief) probably represents the arms of the old principality of Kheldour, while the lower part of the shield might be the addition made when the earldom was created by Uthyr Haldane in 966.
Good grief. Now I'm even making up history for these CoAs!
But I suspect I'm in very sympathetic company here.
Since the hero of my fanfic has been made Prince of Kheldour by his wife, Queen Charissa, I have to say that I do like this crest... I thought I might have him use his own family arms for his new princedom, but I rather like this!
Thanks, DoctorM! Glad to be of some help.
New and newly-revised coats of arms: Bremagne, Fallon, and Fianna.
Bremagne
Given the cultural character of Bremagne, both at home and abroad as presented in the Codex, despite the orthographical suggestion of Bretagne (Brittany) and despite the Breton names of some of its kings, I've decided that Bremagne has more a French than a Breton feel, hence the fleur-de-lis. And we have to have some origin point for them in other heraldry.
Fallon
Having gained their independence from Bremagne, the Fallonese continue to employ the fleur-de-lis (Or on Azure), replacing one of the three in Bremagne's CoA with a royal crown to indicate sovereignty as a kingdom. The female head is added because of the reference in the Codex to the fineness of the wines and cheeses of Fallon, as well to the "comeliness of their women." Perhaps the figure in the CoA is the particularly heroic queen of one of their early kings. (Anyone care to write a story?)
Fianna
Similarly independent of Bremagne, the Fiannese gave up the fleur-de-lis for grape clusters, reflecting the wide fame of their sweet wines.
Alver and Autun:
Alver
An odd little duchy, whose armorial is generally described in Codex as featuring a green frog rampant.
Autun
A mountainous principality once bishopric secularized in the early ninth century (not unlike Montenegro in the RW, in the early nineteenth century). The CoA reflects the situation of the Autun in the Autuni Mountains as well as the highly-prized hair of the Autuni trihorned goats (only a two-horned goat was available to me!). The other charges are episcopal croziers (Argent), reflecting the duchy's origins as an ecclesiastical principality.
I have been an SCA herald, though probably I'm done.
I like mistholme.com as a source about armorial charges. The guy was an SCA herald and he documented when charges or variants were from medieval Europe. He also has good depictions. And, simply, it's online, unlike most old books.
Thanks for the link. I look forward to poking around in the information that's there.
I admit that I'm less interested in being "historically accurate" than in simply exercising some creativity and being a bit fanciful—not unlike the character of the Codex in places.
For the purposes of some of the Castle's fanfiction writers (like Evie), more complicated armorial creations could be "accurate," given a setting for one story on which she's working in the 15th century. For the time of Camber, less so.
Ah yes, the Codex, home of trihorned goats and those herds of antelope and cute little chipmunks gambolling through Llandreth Meadows in the springtime.... ;D
Well, as for "historical accuracy" ... [gestures broadly at a map of the Eleven Kingdoms] [points at magic] [picks up an early 12th century spyglass] ...
Nevertheless, Gwynedd was based on European models [waves hands at all the things]. Also, early medieval armory actually tends to have decent graphic-design principles. You could posit Japanese kamon for the area, or hell, variants on the Coca-Cola logo, but I think European medieval armory fits better. And if the canon has some description of a design, well, it seems plausible to me to start with it.
I don't think your suggestion (that we begin with a canon as constructed) is at all unreasonable, given that one must suspend considerable disbelief that a culture could develop that looks like late medieval Europe (western and eastern) without the particular historical exigencies that resulted in late medieval Europe. Sort of an "in for a penny, in for a pound" approach. However implausible that may be, it works—and clearly and wildly successfully so, given the long and profitable history of fantasy with a medieval European setting that goes back to the medieval period itself.
That I understand that there is actually little that is truly historical or accurate about historical accuracy in fantasy I had hoped to convey that by putting the term "historical accuracy" in quotation marks.
In any event, I was simply explaining my modus operandi. I offer the things I created only in the spirit of sharing something that brought me enjoyment. I expect no one to embrace them as being in any way "canonical." My apologies if I have misconstrued the nature of these fora.
And I do appreciate the healthy criticism from someone with far greater expertise than my own in the field of heraldry—which is to say that I possess none at all. My expertise (outside the practice of medicine) lies in the intellectual, political, and religious history of northwestern and central Europe in the late medieval and early modern periods, not so much in the material history and appended studies of those times.
And, honestly, I also have my own objections to certain "historically inaccurate" things in the Codex, like the etymologies of some of the names. Gwynedd stands out as one that I particularly don't like, as it makes far less sense than the derivation of the real-world toponym Gwynedd; or the derivation of "Horthy" and "Hort" from Horatio rather than the more probable Hortensius—though I like others, like Kheldour (and the demonym Deryni) from Kheldourynoi.
Smiles, nods, pretends she understands more than one word in three
Smart people are cool. :)
As someone who did his doctorate on the later Habsburg Monarchy, anytime I see "Horthy" as a name I instantly think of the Admiral Without a Fleet. So it makes me grin to think of the Hortic lands as having a seacoast.
Central Louisiana, eh? A place I'm familiar with!
I do hope I can ask for your help with some things heraldic. I know how I see my hero's family banner in my mind's eye, but I'm hopelessly unlearned at heraldry. House Falkenberg's colours are black and gold, which is a nod to my old academic interests. I imagine the banner as black with the silhouette of a falcon in gold. The falcon is dangling a shattered chain from one talon. People call it the Falcon Unfettered. I've never had an eye for drawing (I started university in architecture but moved to History when it became painfully clear that my brain wasn't wired for sketching), and the only way I can imagine the falcon silhouette is the Atlanta Falcons logo...which is *not* something I want people thinking about.
Just as a nod, in my AU Eleven Kingdoms, the Shadow Queen has replaced the lions of ducal Tolan and the kingdom of Gwynedd with three Leopards-- part of creating a new kingdom.
Quote from: Frère de Saint-Gabriel on June 09, 2024, 01:19:07 PMThanks, DoctorM! Glad to be of some help.
;)
Thanks, Nezz.
DoctorM, a Horthy reigning over a realm known for its coast—it really is ironic. The admiral is a fascinating character, though perhaps his office is perhaps even more fascinating. A regent in a kingless kingdom (for over twenty years!) is about the closest thing to the Stewards of Gondor that the real world has to offer.
What a splendid subject to have done a dissertation on! After reading a brief biography of the Emperor Karl, admittedly by someone who nearly lionized him, my wife commented that we lived through the dystopian alternative history that resulted when the Allies ended the Austro-Hungarian polity. (One of the reasons that I heartily dislike Woodrow Wilson!) There were certainly problems, but what a difference might a United States of Austria (admittedly, his assassinated uncle's idea, but...) under a Habsburg monarchy have made to the history of the twentieth century. Be that as it may, I think that the Habsburgs go to their burials in the most fitting way possible in that exchange that occurs at the shut doors of the Capuchin church in Vienna: "N., ein sterblicher, sündiger Mensch!"
Curious to learn how you know Central Louisiana. I was born and raised there, but moved away when I went to medical school (in St. Louis). My wife and I (she is also from Central Louisiana) moved to North Carolina after I graduated medical school, some 35 years ago.
I think that you'd get far more knowledgeable assistance from tmcd, but I'll be glad to help in whatever way that I can.
Nice use of heraldry as a political device (too often heraldry and vexillology are overlooked in fiction as means of propaganda) in your AU Eleven Kingdoms.
I am very impressed, these are wonderful.
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet. Sorry I have not yet read this whole thread.I did notice that you have the Carthmoor arms a little to close to the Lairds of MorganHall arms. The arms of the House of Morgan are: Sable, a double tressure or, argent Flory. This is the arms of Kenneth Kai Morgan and the Lairds of Morgan hall before him. (Codex page 183)
Alaric Morgan was able to add the Gryphon to the Morgan arms due to his mother being the Heiress of Corwyn.
Dominic Buyenne du Joux was the first Duke of Corwyn after Mooryn was split. His was the green Gryphon, And I believe upon sable, which I read "In the King's Service". but I am not sure of the reference.
As for Carthmoor, I don't find an arms. But Festil-the-First married the only surviving daughter of the King of Mooryn. Festil took Carthmoor for himself and gave Corywn to his right hand man Dominic. We know the House of Furstan is a leaping hart emblazoned in black on a roundel of silver on an orange field codex pg 101. I personally don't know if Festil changed his arms when he became King of Gwynedd. But I recall that he kept the leaping hart. When the Haldans regained Carthmoor, I am certain the arms would have changed as well. I believe Nigel Haldane is -Or lion rampant guardant gules with a bordure gules.(Sorry my heraldry knowledge is very limited)
Keep up the good work, I am enjoying this.
I too have done a few shields for my own fan fiction stories. My favorite is Washburn Morgan.
Vert, dexter chief couped right hand argent, pierced in the palm with VIII pointed star vert, Dragon passant wings elevated gules, double tressure fleury-counter-fleury or.
His Morgan blazon of -Double tressure flueury-counter-fleury or - will be with Wash forever, but he did loose the right of the Corywn inheritance through actions that were not of his making. Therefor he adopted the Crimson dragon of his father's last vision to him on a background of corwyn green, and the Healers white hand do to his calling. It was fun making this one up.
Quote from: Laurna on June 11, 2024, 12:24:05 PMSorry I have not yet read this whole thread.
I quoted from *The King's Deryni* a couple of pages back in this reply (https://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,3185.msg29503.html#msg29503) to give Nigel's arms, which I am assuming are the arms he later uses when he gets Carthmoor.
Quote from: Laurna on June 11, 2024, 02:14:04 PMI too have done a few shields for my own fan fiction stories. My favorite is Washburn Morgan.
Vert, dexter chief couped right hand argent, pierced in the palm with VIII pointed star vert, Dragon passant wings elevated gules, double tressure fleury-counter-fleury or.
The red on green breaks heraldic rules (a color shouldn't be directly on top of another color, just on a metal or a fur, so the charges will stand out better against the field), but then again, so does the Corwyn green gryphon on the black field, which KK did deliberately despite being very familiar with the no-color-on-color rule, quite likely to serve as a visual cue that our dear darkling duke Alaric is a bit of a rebel (which is like saying the Pope is a little bit Catholic), so I am guessing that rebellious streak runs true in Alaric's family, to the dismay of the Kingdom heralds! ;D
(If anyone is wondering why heraldry normally doesn't allow color on color, try taping the Corwyn arms to a wall across the room and then compare it a copy with a white or yellow background behind the gryphon instead, viewed at equal distance. Which is easier to make out clearly as a gryphon segreant from across the room? Now imagine trying to find someone's shield on a field of battle, perhaps in less than ideal light conditions or across a crowded field. You would want it to be easy to spot and tell apart from something similar at a quick glance, not something you would have to strain to see clearly. Unless of course you are Alaric "I'm the Darkling Duke, so the rules don't apply to me" Morgan. :D
Now if Wash wanted something with a very similar look but more rules complying, that could easily be done by dividing that green field (perhaps diagonally, but horizontally or vertically would work also) so it is green with the white Healer Hand on one side of the divide and white with the red dragon on the other side. That way both the Healer Hand and the dragon stand out very clearly against their respective backgrounds, yet you still preserve the colors and symbolism of the original design, and even someone with red/green colorblindness would see the dragon's edges clearly from across the room.
I am really enjoying looking at these, Frère de Saint-Gabriel.
I've with Nezz on not understanding much but I'm loving looking.
And destroying monarchies doesn't seemed to have worked well - as a royalist from over the pond you'd expect me to say that - but in terms of twentieth century European history I think you can reasonably argue the case.
Washburn Morgan did not fall far from the tree, "that rebellious streak runs true in Alaric's family, to the dismay of the Kingdom heralds!" True indeed!
I gave it a little photo shopping, but I am not going to try and remove the green from behind the gold fluery-counter-fluery. Being as this is just a copy of the book cover and not my own drawing. But I have placed the diagonal and split the green and white. Not sure if the direction of the split is important. I did it this way due to the dragon wings. It is not a correct heraldry by any means. I think the kingdom's heralds will even be more dismayed. :o but at least the color rules apply.
The red on white also reminds me of the House of Cynfyn the Earls of Lendour, Red rearing stage on a white with a checker border. (which again is likely against the rules.)
I really like that Laurna, both the hand and the dragon stand out equally well and you're right about the direction of the slant.
Wow! Nicely done.
I have to give thanks to Feyd for the White hand and Thank you to Jerusha for the Red Dragon, and if that is a mystery to anyone they need to Read "Fall from Grace"
Oh, that split version works so much better for me!!! :)
Laurna, see Reply #39 earlier in the thread. tmcd makes that point that Nigel's personal arms that may reasonably be assumed to serve as the arms of Carthmoor as well (following the historical examples of the English duchies of the later medieval period), so long as the duchy is held by this cadet branch of the house of Haldane. Drawing on a passage in The King's Deryni, he emblazons Nigel Haldane's arms thus: Gules, a demi-lion erect crowned Or.
Here is my interpretation:
Evie, you may be interested to know that I've now revised the CoA of the Forcinn States.
The first image is a modest revision of the nominal suzerain of the Forcinn princes, the Hort of Orsal and Sovereign Prince of Tralia. The arms are emblazoned Seagreen, a morse resurgent Argent.
(In an RPG campaign on which I've been working for some time now, I've rendered the Hort's honorific titles as: His High Mightiness and Royal Highness, N., Hort of Orsal, Sovereign Prince of Tralia, and High Prince of the Forcinn States. "High Mightiness" is taken from the honorific used collectively for members of the Estates General of the Republic of the Netherlands prior to the dissolution of that noble republic by the invading armies of revolutionary France, and I've always liked the title! Seems fitting somehow for a puissant prince with a title otherwise unknown to "history.")
Abandoning my earlier scheme to make the arms of the principalities and their princely families who gained independence from the Duchy of Joux reflect the arms of the parent duchy, I've revised the CoA to be unique.
The CoA of the Duchy of Joux now reflects the foundational significance of the second duke, Reynard I, son of Duc Béraud Buyenne. Reynard "greatly expanded Joux's boundaries" (Codex, 139-40). So the new shield is charged with—a fox rampant!
The third image is the CoA of the Grand Duchy of Vézaire. The arms of the grand duke lean into the origins of the grand ducal family in a "former sheep farmer" (Codex, 256)—I thought that they might consider that a sort of poke-in-the-eye to the Duke of Joux. The escallops are a nod as well to the sea coast on which the lovely capital, Côte d'Alban, sits. The CoA is a little more complex, a little more fancy than Joux's—as befits as upstart family of former sheep farmers with something to prove!
That is very interesting about the Demi Lion. I never would have thought of only the upper 2/3 of the lion shown. very distinctive.
Quote from: Laurna on June 12, 2024, 07:29:05 PMThat is very interesting about the Demi Lion. I never would have thought of only the upper 2/3 of the lion shown. very distinctive.
I'm interested to know whether tmcd thinks this an accurate interpretation of the blazon.
Rounding out the Forcinn States, the Principality of Logréine and the sovereign County of Thuria (Thurie)...
In the CoA of Logréine, the chief is charged with three barrels, denoting the "several varieties of ale, mead, wine, and other spirits" produced in the Principality. The boar statant recalls that Logréine produces pork from its central plain.
The CoA of Thuria (or Thurie) is a shield vert in the same sea green shade as the arms of Orsal and Tralia, charged with a castle representing the Kronburg, the fortress sitting at the heart of the county's capital town of the same name.
Your Thurian arms intrigue me, as this is the device of my SCA barony, Castlemere, and we often simplify it to a badge of vert, a castle argent.
Although they aren't considered Forcinn buffer states, these serve as buffer states between the Forcinn and the Kingdom of R'Kassi.
The arms of the Principality of Jáca recall the origin of the principality in the incorporation of the counties of Jacance and Mont-Volcan and the barony of Pixière under the rule of Arsieu Comte de Mont-Volcan as Arsieu I, Prince de Jáca. The arms also recall that the holy Saint Sava is said to have been a native of this region.
The arms of the Principality and sovereign Emirate of Nur Hallaj consist of a lion passant Or on a green field. The arms were modified on the conversion of the Emir Hafiz (Jabez) to the Christian faith in A.D. 866 to include a cross fleury Or.
The arms of the Principality of Andelon consist of a pomegranate proper on a shield Argent a bordure Gules. This is a nod to the orthographic similarity of Andelon and Andalusia, since the pomegranate is found in the heraldry of the kingdom of Granada.