A complete genealogical breakdown of Haldane's & MacRorie's frm Camber to Kelson

[Popi]

I would like to see if Katherine has yet made a complete generalogical breakdown of the Haldane's and MacRorie's from Camber to Kelson.  Does anyone know is this is available?

[lenni]

Popi,

I would like to see if Katherine has yet made a complete generalogical breakdown of the Haldane's and MacRorie's from Camber to Kelson.  Does anyone know is this is available?

Well, no, but sort of if you gather together information that is in the various books, mostly Codex Derynianus.

We know of at least one way that Kelson Haldane is descended from Camber MacRorie - through Rhy and Evaine's child Rhysel.  Kelson may be descended from Camber other ways, but we don't know.  There is a lot of vagueness (missing information!) regarding Camber's descendants in the Codices.

Rebecca Davis' fine Web site - <http://www.mindspring.com/~rebldavis/home.html> - allows you to rummage through most of the known genealogy as of Codex Derynianus (the original).

If you'd like, I can give you a more direct listing of this (Camber -> Kelson) taken from both editions of Codex Derynianus.

Kathleen

[lancingboy]

Thanks for the website and information. I'm surprised nobody else has asked this question yet (from what little I've seen on the site so far. I'm totally new here and didn't even know they had forums for the Deryni series. I happened upon it by accident when I was Googling it.

[tenworld]

its been talked about in the distant past a lot on the abandoned Usenet site.  I assume you also know Morgan and Duncan are descended from Camber so they are cousins with kelson, probably several times (just as Duncan And Morgan are first cousins by their Deryni mother and 3rd cousins by their non-Deryni fathers).  I think.

funny I was rereading Deryni Checkmate and noticed the similarity between abandoned sites.  So today's Scammers are descendants of Cinhil's regents apparently. 

[Laurna]

Some times I get a kick out of following guests viewing old topics, I end up reading topics I have never read before.
I might be about 16 years late, but I would love to answer this question with this Link.
https://rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,1439.0.html

and there are many more like it. Just a hobby of mine.

[Bynw]

I don't think KK has made that family tree yet. Unless she has it in some notes that no one has every seen. Ask her during chat!

[Laurna]

Yes, KK has made the connections in her notes. She actually entrusted me with a part of her genealogy trees and the connections are in there.   I am almost 100% certain that she will make it clear when The Road to Killingford is published. Fingers crossed.

[LeDuc]

I have the soft 2nd edition Codex Derynianus, and a printed out copy of the genealogies. It is possible, in addition to all the books, to 'track back' any individual family line and tree, and have done so for Liam-Lajos King of Torenth, Kelson and Araxie, King and Queen Consort of Gwynnedd, and a partial, unproven, connective line for Oksana, Duchess Consort of Laas.
Genealogy and its research run deep in my family, so this is much enjoyed.
Anyone with questions, message me, and I'll research it out.

[Laurna]

The Codex was written in timeline order, therefore, the best way to decipher the codex is to start at the oldest family lines first.

But I personally like playing with descendant graphs. So after figuring it all out, I have the Descendant lists of persons connecting Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien Haldane, Hereditary Prince of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara,  to Camber MacRorie, Earl of Culdi

All Lists share the early Generations, after Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell the lines split between two daughters who both carried the line. Their children merge in later generations.  One is a nine generation gap, two are 10 generation gaps and two are 12 generations gaps:


9 Generations Gap)
1) Javan Haldane, Araxie Haldane-Haldane, Richard Haldane, King Malcolm Haldane, King Urien Haldane, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quennell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

10 Generations gap)
2) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, King Donal Haldane, King Malcolm Haldane, King Urien Haldane, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quinnell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

3) Javan Haldane, Araxie Haldane-Haldane, Richard Haldane, Cecilia Calder-Haldane, Prassana FitzArthur Quinnell-Calder, (Best Guess Prassana is either Tambert's daughter or his sister- the Codex is unclear)Tambert II FitzArthur Quinnell, Fane FitzArthur Quinnell, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

12 Generation gap)
4) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, Richeldis MacFaolane Gruffud-Haldane, King Colman MacFaolan, King Fergus MacFaolan, King Bresal MacFaolan, Tiphanelle Haldane-MacFaolan, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quinnell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie. 
   
5) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, Richeldis MacFaolane Gruffud-Haldane, King Colman MacFaolan, Lissa McLain-MacFaolan, Tairchell McLain, Roger McLain, Nerina FitzArthur Quinnell-MacLain, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.


The women's maiden name is Hyphenated it first position.

I can do this for Alaric and Duncan too if anyone would like that.

[JediMatt1000]

I find this extremely fascinating!

[DerynifanK]

The Codex was written in timeline order, therefore, the best way to decipher the codex is to start at the oldest family lines first.

But I personally like playing with descendant graphs. So after figuring it all out, I have the Descendant lists of persons connecting Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien Haldane, Hereditary Prince of Gwynedd, Prince of Meara,  to Camber MacRorie, Earl of Culdi

All Lists share the early Generations, after Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell the lines split between two daughters who both carried the line. Their children merge in later generations.  One is a nine generation gap, two are 10 generation gaps and two are 12 generations gaps:


9 Generations Gap)
1) Javan Haldane, Araxie Haldane-Haldane, Richard Haldane, King Malcolm Haldane, King Urien Haldane, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quennell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

10 Generations gap)
2) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, King Donal Haldane, King Malcolm Haldane, King Urien Haldane, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quinnell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

3) Javan Haldane, Araxie Haldane-Haldane, Richard Haldane, Cecilia Calder-Haldane, Prassana FitzArthur Quinnell-Calder, (Best Guess Prassana is either Tambert's daughter or his sister- the Codex is unclear)Tambert II FitzArthur Quinnell, Fane FitzArthur Quinnell, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

12 Generation gap)
4) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, Richeldis MacFaolane Gruffud-Haldane, King Colman MacFaolan, King Fergus MacFaolan, King Bresal MacFaolan, Tiphanelle Haldane-MacFaolan, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quinnell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie. 
   
5) Javan Haldane, King Kelson Haldane, King Brion Haldane, Richeldis MacFaolane Gruffud-Haldane, King Colman MacFaolan, Lissa McLain-MacFaolan, Tairchell McLain, Roger McLain, Nerina FitzArthur Quinnell-MacLain, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.


The women's maiden name is Hyphenated it first position.

I can do this for Alaric and Duncan too if anyone would like that.
Please do. It is fascinating

[Avisa]

I really need to know more about Tieg's descendants. What happened to all of them??? And Jerusha was a healer too, one or both of them HAS to be an ancestor to Alaric and Duncan. It seems like they must have contributed to the de Corwyn or Cynfyn families but there are so many blanks, especially in the Cynfyn tree. Maybe through a MacAthan connection? While we're at it, what happened to Sief and Jessamy's younger two daughters?

[Laurna]

Tieg Thuryn is a mystery to all of us. It is presumed that his descendants are going to be given to us in the next Deryni Novel leading up to the year 1025 The Road to Killingford.  I am waiting lovingly for that novel to get written. When KK held back information in the Codex, it is because she plans to write about it in the future, but didn't have the answers yet worked out for herself. She says she has already outlined that novel with its list of characters. So I hope we will get that answer soon.

In the meantime, here is what we know. (and I will also share my own fanfiction theory on Tieg's children and grand children and great grand children)


Rhys Thuryn Feb 17 877 to Dec 25 917
Married on Jan 6 904 to
Evaine MacRorie Oct 6 882 to Augg 1 918

Children:
Aidan Thuryn 907=918
Rhysel Thuryn 910-974
Tieg Thuryn 914-948
Jerusha Thuryn 918-1001

Rhysel marries Robert Ainslie On Aug 21 928
They have three children:
Bethany Ainslie who marries Alphard de Courcy
Javyl Ainslie who keeps the Ainslie line going until current times.
Tiphanel Ainslie who Marries Tammaron FitzArthur Quinnell Duke of Cassan (This line then follows to the Haldanes, the McLains and the Morgans.)

Jerusha marries Cathan Drummond, who is Lord Regent of Gwynedd and they have three children

Kyriella Drummond married Lord Stuart MacAthan (son of Ansel MacAthan)
Corwin Drummond
Evalina Drummond

We do not have information further on the Drummonds only that the line persists to Kelson's era. (We do have a Fan fiction story by Drakensis War of Three Kings that involves the sons of Corwin Drummond)

Tieg Thuryn Lord Healer  marries on Aug 25 935 to
Karis d'Oriel Daughter of Healer Oriel (so we have to guess that their children are healers or carry a strong healer line.)

Their children are:
Madelon Thuryn c936 who marries Lord Jurgen Leslie (the Leslie family are known Deryni)

Aine Thuryn, Lady c938 her future is unknown

Jacuth Thuryn Lord Healer c940 (Nothing in Canon about him but I have an entire fanfiction story based on his children)

Lassa Thuryn Lady c944 her future is unknown.

What we do know about this family, is that in the year 948 during a great illness and political upheaval the whole family was orphaned, and the four children were taken in by Lady Fiona MacLean and Lord Ansel (MacRorie)MacAthan and raised in Travalga in the Connait at the MacGregor castle.

As I said above, I am certain that KK does have plans to tell us more about the Thuryn family.  We just need to remind her once in a while that we are anxiously waiting, and then we need to have much patience.

NOW!  Because I DON"T always have that much patience in my mind, I wrote my first fan fiction story about the daughter of Jacuth Thuryn.

In my story Jacuth went to the Isle of Orsal to train in magic and that is where he fell in love with Princess Elzia Horthy Daughter of Cyric I von Horthy Hort of Orsal. Due to the surname of Thuryn being outlawed, Jacuth changed his Surname to Kriell in honor of Camber (that was Camber's name in the church)They married and had five children:
Jathurn Thuryn Kriell Lord, Cyrissa Lady, Orlita Lady, Ellison Kriell Lord, and Jessamyn Lady,
My story is about Jessa becoming split from the family and then meeting Washburn Cynfyn (Fanfiction) (the younger brother of Muir Cynfyn Earl of Lendour(Codex)). Yes their descendants would lead to Keryell Cynfyn Grandfather of Alaric Morgan. (Coins of Memory)

(I so wish my own dreams on this were more than just fan fiction, A girl can dream can she NOT?)

[Laurna]

Until such time as we learn more about Tieg Thuryn and his family, the current Descendants Lists from  Alaric and Duncan flow down from Rhysel Thuryn.

As before: The women's maiden name is Hyphenated it first position, their married surname in second position.

Let's complicate the picture by starting with Kelric Alain Morgan:

10 generations gap:
Following Alaric's descendants:

1)Kelric Morgan, Alaric Morgan, Kenneth Morgan, Madonna McLain-Morgan, Arnall McLain, Roger McLain, Nerina FitzArthur Quinnell-McLain, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

and:
2)Kelric Morgan, Alaric Morgan, Kenneth Morgan, Madonna McLain-Morgan, Adelicia FiztArthur Quinnell-McLain, Tambert II FitzArthur Quinnell, Fane FitzArthur Quinnell, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Ainslie, Camber MacRorie.



12 generation gap:
Following Richenda's descendants:

3)Kelric Morgan, Richenda FitzEwan-Morgan, Michendra Vastouni-FitzEwan, Ysabeau MontVolcan-Vastouni, Ebles MontVolcan, Yves MontVolcan, Rathnait Haldane-MontVolcan, Urien Haldane, Swynbeth FitzArthur Quinnell-Haldane, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthurQuinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.

These are documented in the Codex

[Laurna]

Now let us list Duncan's family lines.  Only let's complicated it by starting with Dhugal Ardry MacArdry McLain.

10 generation gap:

1)Dhugal McLain, Duncan McLain, Jared McLain, Andrew McLain, Arnall McLain, Roger McLain, Nerina FitzArthur Quinnell-Mclain, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuyrn, Camber MacRorie.

and
2)Dhugal McLain, Duncan McLain, Jared McLain, Andrew McLain, Adelicia FitzArthur Quinnell-McLain, Tambert II FitzArthur Quinnell, Fane FitzArthur Quinnell, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuryn, Camber MacRorie.


You will notice in the two lists differ only for two generations: that Fane FitzArthur Quinnell and Nerina FitzArthurQuinnell-McLain are siblings. and that Two generations latter, Adelicia FitzArthur Quinnell-McLain and Arnall McLain, who are cousins, become married and had their son Andrew McLain.


Now following Dhugal's real mother, Maryse MacArdry, we can get another descendant list:

10 generation gap:

3)Dhugal McLain, Maryse MacArdry-McLain, Caulay MacArdry, Arthur MacArdry, Mayla McLain-MacArdry, Roger McLain, Nerina FitzArthur Quinnell-Mclain, Tiphane Ainslie-FitzArthur Quinnell, Rhysel Thuryn-Ainslie, Evaine MacRorie-Thuyrn, Camber MacRorie.


In both the Duncan family lines and the Alaric family lines, you will notice that Roger McLain holds a prominent place in the middle of both families. I believe that the upcoming novel Road to Killingford by KK will have Roger McLain as a major character. I do so want to read that.