I just got my copy. . .

[Laurna]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.

****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****

[r2005]

The one thing I searched for high and low is not to be found at either of these two sites, nor in the Codex. It was that unanswered question that caused me to write some fan fiction. Alaric's descending from Rhys. I know the connection must exist. It just has too! Someday KK will enlighten us.  Or so I hope.

Even if KK hasn't told us the exact path, we know the connection does exist. She said that when she was stuck writing The Knighting of Derry, she figured out the path. That tidbit of information is in an introduction to the The Knighting of Derry. So, it's more a matter of KK telling us one day, or someone who has a copy of the Codex will find enough clues to figure it out.

[drakensis]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.

****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****

I can tell you if you want. Or drop hints like a riddle-obsessed oracle until you find it if you'd prefer. (I've double-checked and I'm sure I'm not mistaken).

[Evie]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Alaric Morgan is indeed descended from Rhys Thuryn and the answer I found is in the Codex.

****Laurna sneaks off with her codex and a good reading light in search for a clue!****

I can tell you if you want. Or drop hints like a riddle-obsessed oracle until you find it if you'd prefer. (I've double-checked and I'm sure I'm not mistaken).

I'm quite curious myself, especially since we asked KK in chat about that connection sometime earlier in the year, and whatever she had worked out in her head all those years ago she has evidently forgotten, since all she could recall was how Duncan connects to the Camber bloodline, not how Morgan is descended from him. So unless she remembers again, the solution to that mystery is unlikely to come from her. So if you've rediscovered the link, please share!

[Laurna]

It is 4:00 am in the morning I think I found it an hour ago. Trouble is I spent some time confirming the generations and other facts. When I went back to confirm the one marriage that makes it work I could not refind where that one fact was stated.  The page number I had written down was not correct. Yikes
My eyes are crossing. I will check again in the morning. Don't tell me just yet.

[Laurna]

I found it!  I have Proof!
I am still writing out the full generational line and will post it when it is done.
Meanwhile if you want a hint, it is generation 4 and 5. (Camber generation one and Alaric generation ten)

If you need a hint, it is Roger McLain's Mother. The succession is clearly in print but can not be found by looking up the McLain line.

Need a second hint? Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn, (Daughter of Rhys and Evaine) has a daughter named Tiphane, Lady Ainslie, who marries the Duke of Cassan, Generation four.  Tiphane has two daughters and a son. The Older daughter marries Cluim Haldane, and the younger daughter marries a McLain, Roger's father.

Can you name Roger McLain's parents? Roger McLain is Generation six.
I have the page number with the proof if you can not find it.

[Jerusha]

Arrgh! I don't have the time right now to do the research, so if someone can share where the information can be found, I will be forever in your debt.  Or at least very grateful.   

Feel free to share by PM if you don't want to spoil the search for others.

[Laurna]

Jerusha I sent you a PM with my Generation chart that I have nearly finished.
I hope the long unanswered question is finally answered.     Camber - Alaric through descendents of Rhysel.
But don't worry. This only confirms my fan fiction desire to have two generational lines that lead from Camber to Alaric. The second through descendents of Tieg.

[Aerlys]

Ack! I barely have time to open my mail, let alone sort out Deryni genealogy. I bow to your industry!

[lenni]

Since I woke absurdly early today I finished some supplementary work for the fic and thought I may as well post it here. Pertinent in that pretty much all of this is information from the Codex, simply presented a little differently:

<snip>
Drakensis,

What program(s) did you use to generate these charts? They are very nice! Thanks so much for sharing with us!

Lenni

[lenni]

Laurna,

I think that I know Roger's mother, but since the OS where I run my main genealogy program is down, I can't be sure!

Jerusha I sent you a PM with my Generation chart that I have nearly finished.
I hope the long unanswered question is finally answered.     Camber - Alaric through descendents of Rhysel.
But don't worry. This only confirms my fan fiction desire to have two generational lines that lead from Camber to Alaric. The second through descendents of Tieg.

I'm begging you! Will you kindly share your Generational chart (or at least the page number!) with the rest of us? Pretty please?!

Lenni

[Laurna]

What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.

But is is OK.  I am at home in a cast, but I have a lot more time to fix that genealogy chart.

The only obstacle is the peculiar wording in the sentence I found.

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.

[lenni]

Laurna,

What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.

Yikes!! May your foot heal soon and your doggies comfort you! ;-)

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.

Hey, it works for me! Thanks for sharing. :-)

Lenni

[Laurna]

This is my summery of the geneology chart.

Camber ---Alaric

Generation One ( Birth 846)

+Camber Kyriell MacRorie,  7th Earl of Culdi,  Deryni Mage
Called Defensor Hominum and Kingmaker, Saint
      Born: August 3, 846  Died in name June 905, Died January 6, 918
      Son of Ballard II, and Ardis Lady Drummond.
      Married Jocelyn Lady de La Marche on May 18,871
      6 children: Count Cathan, Lady Jerusha(Died at age twelve of fever),Lord Ballard(died at age 11 of fever), Lord Joram(Michaeline priest), Lady    Ardissa( stillborn), Lady Evaine.
~Jocelyn Lady de La Marche, Countess of Culdi, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born July 21 848, Died December 12 896
      Daughter of Evan Barib de la Marche and Brio Lady Gillaspie
      Married: Camber Kyriell MacRorie on May 18, 871

Generation Two (Birth 882)

++Evaine Elspeth Jessamyn MacRorie Thuryn, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born: October 6, 882, Died: August 1, 918
      Daughter of Camber and Jocelyn
      Married: Rhys Lord Thuryn on January 6, 904
      4 Children: Lord Aidan Camber( murdered at age 10 by the regents),Lady Rhysel Jocelyn(Married Sir Tovin Ainslie), Lord Tieg Joram(married Karis  D'Oriel), Lady Jerusha Evaine Jodotha(married Sir Cathan Drummond)
      Founding Member of the Camberian Council, Chatelaine of Tor Caerrorie
      Died while attempting to restore her father from a suspension spell.
~Rhys Malachy Thuryn, Lord, Deryni Healer
      Born: February 17, 877 orphaned in 878 and adopted by Camber
      Son of Malachy Lord Thuryn and Rosanaugh Lady FitzWilliams
      Married: Evaine Lady MacRorie on January 6, 904
      Studied Saint Liam's Abbey, Owned estate called Sheele, North of Valoret.
      Founding Member of the Camberian Council,
      Died February 2, 917 while helping Camber escape from the Regents' trap at All Saints Cathedral.

Generation Three (Birth 910)

++Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn, Lady, Trained Deryni
      Born November 18, 910, Died October 23, 974
      Daughter of Rhys Lord Thuryn and Evaine Lady MacRorie
      Orphaned on August 1, 918, Raised by Fiona MacLean
      Married: Sir Robert Ainslie on August 21, 928
      3 Children Lady Bethany(married Alphard Baron Stanzar), Sir Javyl(later Lord of Argoed), Lady Tiphane (married Tammaron Duke of Cassan),
~Robert Ainslie, called Robin, Hereditary Lord Argoed, Lord Regent of Gwynedd, Sir
      Born April 1 901, Died February 3, 949
      Son of Ainslie Lord Argoed( lives 100years and 5days)  and Edidh Lady Ballingmore
      Married Rhysel lady Thuryn on August 21, 928

Generation Four (Birth ?)

++Tiphane, Lady Ainslie
     (No individual entry placed in the Codex)
     Born:in or after 930,  Died: unknown
     Daughter of Robert Ainslie and Rhysel Jocelyn Thuryn 
     Marries Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan on August 17, 950
     Children: Lady Swynbeth, Twins Lord Fane, LadyNerina
~Tammaron II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan 948-994
     (No individual entry placed in the Codex)
     Born: April 29, 934 *Codex page 301 , Died: 994
     Son of Tambert I, Duke of Cassan and Adelicia, Lady of Horthness(married May 21,929. *Codex page 300.) Tambert I becomes Duke of Cassan "under terms of an irrevocable agreement between Cassan and Gwynedd on September 22, 916" (*Codex page 60)
     Marries Lady Tiphane on August 17, 950 (*Codex page 302)
     Children: Lady Swynbeth, Lord Fane(twin), Lady Nerina(twin)

Generation Five (Birth 952 )

++ Fane, Lord, Duke of Cassan (994-1016)
        Born December 15, 952 Twin to Lady Nerina (*Codex page 302)
        Son of Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan and Lady Tiphane
        Married: Ardana Lady de Courcy (Codex page 239)
        Children: Tambert II later Duke of Cassan(1016-1025)
~Ardana, Lady de Courcy

+++Nerina, Lady
       Born December 15, 952 Twin to Fane (*Codex page 302)
       Daughter of Tammaron Fitz-Arthur Quinnell, Duke of Cassan and Lady Tiphane
       Married Andrew McLain Laird of House McLain (983-1003) (Codex Page 239 heading  Tambert I, "the lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain")
     Children: Roger McLain
~Andrew McLain,Laird of House McLain (983-1003)
      Born    ,Died 1003
      Son of Duncan  Laird of Leanshire (962-983)
      Married Nerina Lady Fitz-Arthur Quinnell around 968 
     Children: Lord Roger McLain (Marries Glorian Lady MacInnis Heiress of Kierney on March 11, 990 (*Codex page 306)

Generation Six (Birth ? )

++Tambert II Fitz-Arthur Quinnell later Duke of Casan 1016-1025
    Born   Died
    Son of Fan Duke of Cassan and Ardana Lday de Courcey
    Married unknown
    Children: Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan
~Unknown

+++ Roger, Sir, Lord, Laird of House McLain (1003-1025)
      Born: unknown (around 969)   Died 1025
      Son of Andrew McLain and Nerina Fitz-Arthur Quinnell
      Marries Glorian Lady MacInnis, Heiress of Kierney on March 11, 990
      Children: Lord Tairchell (born December 27, 990) Laird of House McLain (1025-1060)Marries Rhetice MacEwan, Lord Arnall (Born April 18,992) Laird of House McLain (1060-1076)marries Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan.  (Codex Timeline, page 307, under years 990 and 992)
~Glorian Lady MacInnis, Heiress of Kierney
      Born: 961         Died November 11, 1033 age 73
      Daughter of Richard MacInnis, Earl of Kierney(948-1025) and Unknown
      Glorian MacInnis Countess of Kierney dies November 11, 1033, aged LXXIII years, and is succeeded by her son, Lord Arnall McLain.(Codex page 310)

Generation Seven (Birth 992 )

+++ Arnall McLain, Sir, Lord, Lard of House McLain (1060-1076)
      Born April 18, 992  Died 1076
      Second Son of Roger McLain and Glorian Lady MacInnis
      Marries Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell  Heiress to Duchy of Cassan on February 20, 1022 (Codex page 309)
      Children: Andrew Duke of Cassan from Birth (1034-1099), Older daughter, Madonna McLain
++Adelicia Fitz-Arthur Quinnell Heiress to Duchy of Cassan
      Born  Died
      Daughter of Tambert II Duke of Cassan(1016-1025) and Unknown
      Married her cousin Arnall McLain

Generation Eight (Birth   )
++ Madonna  Lady McLain
        Born    Died
        Daughter of Arnall Earl of Keirney and Adelicia Fitz Arthur Quinnell Heiress of Cassan
        Married Kai Anthony Morgan, SIr  Laird of Morgahall
        Children Kenneth Kai Morgan
~ Kai  Anthony Morgan,  Laird of Morganhall, Sir
   

Gereration Nine  (Birth  1046 )

++ Kenneth Kai Morgan, Hereditary Knight , Laird of Morganhall, Sir
       Born October 7, 1046  Died  September 24, 1100
       Son of Kai Anthony Morgan, SIr and Madonna Lady McLain
       Marries Amya Lady ALmaris
       Children:Master Kai Kennis (Died age 3), Master Kailan Lain(stillborn), Mistress Zoe Bronwyn, Mistress Geill, Mistress Alazais.
       Married Alyce lady de Cynfyn Heiress de Corwyn on June18, 1090
       2 Children: Sir Alaric Anthony, Lady Bronwyn Rhetice (Betrothed to Kevin Mclain)
~Alyce Javana Lady Cynfyn, Heiress de Corwyn and Lendour
      Born February 22, 1070  Died December 29, 1095
      Daughter of Keryell Earl of Lendour and Stevana Heiress de Corwyn
      Elder of twin sister Vera howard
      Married Sir Kenneth Kai Morgan on June 16, 1090
      Children: Sir Alaric Anthony, Lady Bronwyn Rhetice (Betrothed to Kevin Mclain)

Genertion Ten   (Birth  1091 )

++Alaric Anthony Morgan, VIIth Duke of Corwyn, Earl of Lendour, King's Champion Lord Protector of the South, Hereditary Knight and Laird of Morganhall, Sir
      Born September 29, 1091
      Son of Sir Kenneth Kai Morgan and Alyce Lady de Corwyn
      Married Richenda
~Richenda Rayma Anisa, Lady Rheljan, Dowager Countess and regent of Marley, Duches of Corwyn.
      Daughter of Richard FitzEwan Baron of Rheljan and Michendra Princess of Andelon
      Married Bran Coris, Earl of Marly on June 12, 1116
      Children: Brandon later Earl of Marley,  Lady Rhiannon Ysabeau ( died at age 1)
      Widowed on July 2, 1121
      Married Alaric Anthony Morgan on May 1st, 1122
      Children: Countess Briony Bronwyn, Hereditary Duke Kelric Alain Earl of Lendour born May 3, 1125, Countess Sophonisba Alyca Richenda (also named Grania Marie Araxelle) Born April 12, 1129

Generation Eleven   (Birth   )

++  Countess Briony Bronwyn
       Born January 31, 1123

++  Kelric Alain Earl of Lendour Hereditary Duke of Corwyn
       Born May 3, 1125

++  Countess Grania Marie Araxelle
       Born April 12, 1129
   
Thank you Drakensis for inspiring me to search the Codex again.
If you find I am in error any where please let me know, Thank you.

[drakensis]

Since I woke absurdly early today I finished some supplementary work for the fic and thought I may as well post it here. Pertinent in that pretty much all of this is information from the Codex, simply presented a little differently:

<snip>
Drakensis,

What program(s) did you use to generate these charts? They are very nice! Thanks so much for sharing with us!

Lenni

Honestly, it's nothing but Windows Paint.

What a day!
I was so happy I had answered this riddle that I went outside to play with my dogs. I got them all jazzed up. Apparently, too jazzed. We had been playing for about 30 minutes when I decided to go brush a horse. I guess the dogs didn't want me to go. They were dashing in and out of my feet, and in one step Jessa Mia was under my foot. Terrified I might hurt her if I stepped down, I  tripped side ways. Clunk!  I was on the ground with many dogy tongues licking my face. I went to work but my right foot swelled up. So after an x-ray, I have a broken foot.

I'm sorry to hear of your injury.

The only obstacle is the peculiar wording in the sentence I found.

Here is the entry:
"Tambert I Fitz - Arthur Quinnell, 1st Duke of Cassan. He was born in the IXth day of August in the Year of our Lord 916, being the eldest son and Heir of Fane Earl Fitz-arthur and Anne Quinnell Princess of Cassan, and grandson of Tammaron Earl Fitz-Arthur and Ambert last Sovereign Prince of Cassan. He intermarried with Adelicia Lady Of Horthness daughter of Rhun Earl of Sheele on the XXIst day of May in the year 929 and by her he had children: The hereditary Duke Tammaron II later Duke of Cassan; the Lord Flynn later Earl Derry; the Lady Eldona; the Lady Annetta.
Duke Tambert's eldest son, Tammaron Duke of Cassan, married Tiphane Lady Ainslie on the XVIIth day of August in the year 950, and by her he had children: The Lady Swynbeth, who intermarried with Cluim King of Gwynedd; the Hereditary Duke Fane, later Duke of Cassan who intermarried with Ardana Lady de Courcy; The Lady Nerina, a twin to her brother, who intermarried with Sir Andrew McLain, father of Sir Roger McLain."

My only concern here is that Andrew McLain had not been married previously. That Roger is indeed Nerina's son and not a son from a different marriage. KK and Robert would not do that to us, Would they?  There is no evidence of Andrew McLain being married before he married Nerina, so I am using this as fact.

Oh my. That's not the connection I'd found, but it confirms the one point of uncertainty I had. It all looks correct to me, but I had a different generation five and generation six, tracking the succession through Nerina's brother Fane - his son Tambert II was the father of Adelicia, who married Arnall McLain. My only doubt was some of Tammaron's children might be from another marriage.

Roger McLain may have had two marriages since Tairchell McLain inherits Leanshire and his younger brother Arnall inherits Kierney in 1033 - presumably on his mother's death - while Tairchell McLain would still be alive until 1060. Could I ask your source for Tairchell and Arnall's dates of birth? My own theory was that Arnall was the elder and Tairchell was specifically deeded Leanshire rather than it defaulting to the eldest son (only for it to revert to Arnall when Tairchell had no living heirs). Or maybe there's some specific requirement to separate the titles - otherwise the McLains of Leanshire should probably have inherited Kierney since they're descended of the last MacLean Earl whereas the title actually went to the daughter of the last Earl's brother and thus to the MacInnis family.

(also, you list Roger as born on or after 990 - I think you mean 'before')

It's an excellent chart though!


Edit: found the dates of birth on the timeline, which also states Tairchell was Earl before Arnall. That makes more sense than the list of Earls which doesn't mention Tairchell and lists Arnall directly after their mother.